DOES THE BIBLE TEACH BLIND OBEDIENCE???

by DATA-DOG 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I would like your opinions on a subject raised on another thread. Here are some statements that I made regarding "blind obedience."

    1) DD: " How would counter what Paul wrote about being obedient to those taking the lead? I would love to give a TTATT comment at the KH. Nowhere in the bible will you find admonition to blindly obey humans."

    2) DD: "... but I do not have to blindly follow men. Can YOU show us in the scriptures where that is required? "

    3) DD: " Abraham had plenty of prior evidence for his faith. God communicated with him. The Watchtower has no such credentials. Not one example exists in all scripture of blind faith being required."

    Here is the response of on new member of JWN, Sauloftarsus. Welcome Sauloftarsus!!

    Sauloftarsus said:

    Data Dog, pick one:

    John 20:29

    Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    Proverbs 14:15

    The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.

    2 Corinthians 4:18

    As we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

    James 2:14-17

    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    John 20:31

    But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    Galatians 3:26

    For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

    Psalm 14:1

    To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

    Romans 14:1-23

    As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

    John 9:1-41

    As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    Luke 15:7

    Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

    Matthew 28:20

    Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Matthew 5:5

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

    Matthew 4:12-23

    Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”

    John 3:16

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Mark 16:16

    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    1 John 1:9

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    John 20:1-31

    Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in.

    Matthew 5:21-22

    “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

    And as chosing Jesus, always without him, we wouldn't have ingorant discussions like we have now. and as for your Knight comment. Before deciding to insult someone, why don't you first smell what your shoveling because as a theologian your a poor example.

    END OF COMMENT.

    Alrighty... Let me respond. First off, I am not a theologian. Never claimed to be. Secondly, if we proceed from the premise that the bible is God's word, then there is ZERO admonition for blind obedience in GOD, and especially in men. None of the scriptures cited above prove that blind obedience is required from any human. All who put faith in Christ were putting faith in the things "heard." Yes, there were many who were not eye-witnesses of Jesus' works and miracles, but they saw the effects they had on others. That is evidence. So blind faith did not occur.

    Also, after Jesus' death it would be impossible to be an eye-witness of Christ. Still there was evidence. His chosen followers had the Holy Spirit operating upon them! What about the great outpouring of holy spirit at Pentacost 33 c.e? That was evidence! What about Cornelius? He put faith in the things he saw and heard and received the Holy Spirit before even being baptized. That was evidence! What about the things "unseen?" There was ample evidence that those teaching others about Christ had God's backing. They performed real miracles, they raised the dead! That was evidence of the heavenly realms existence. Again, no blind faith. It is simply not a requirement of God.

    What about today? What about the Watchtower and all other organized religions?? What are their credentials as corporations or organizations? No miracles occur, that's for sure. Those who claim to have a monopoly on "truth" while simultaneously flip-flopping and tacking in the wind, surely do not merit blind obedience. What about breaking "Caesar's law", not because God's laws are on the line, but to protect pedophiles or pocket-books? Do they deserve blind obedience? Is there any situation where a "true" Christian would be required to blindly obey another human being? I say, " NO." If you have evidence, then there is no blind faith. It is simply not possible. Scripturally speaking, there are no instances of blind faith. If you want to challenge what bible believers call "evidence", that is another matter for another time. If YOU believe the bible is God's word and if YOU believe what you read in the bible, then there is simply no grounds for claiming that blind obedience is required. God never said, " Believe me because I say so." If I don't have to put blind faith is a creator, then I sure as heck don't have to put blind faith in human prognosticators.

    The monent that any individual or group, or organization/corporation deviates from, or twists the scriptures, they should be ignored by a "true" Christian. These words of Christ Jesus apply especially to adventist/neo zionist/thingamajig-type movements like the WTBTS.

    Luke 21:8 [ ESV] " And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

  • designs
    designs

    DD- Jesus said that only he was 'the Way and the Truth and the Life', sounds pretty one-sided control the lives of others.

  • mynameislame
    mynameislame

    The problem is that the bible can be use to prove just about anything.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I am proceeding from the premise that the Bible is God's Word, and that YOU believe what it says. If someone does believe that, then they look at the ministry of Jesus as "evidence." Therefore they are not "blindly" putting faith in anything because they just read the evidence that Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life. I am asking the reader to put themselves into the shoes of Bible believers, and to use the bible that they believe to be God's infallible word to prove that he requires blind obedience, especially in humans.

    So by just reading what it says[ as a believer] without bias or an agenda[ like wanting to make money from religion], does it teach blind obedience in God or men? Remember I am not putting the "evidence" under scrutiny. That is another subject entirely.

    DD

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Blind obedience to men ? .. No Way! . Any experienced dub knows that you have to take what some of them say with a pinch of salt. We have all had bad counsel over the years.

    The Bible said : Heb 13 .7 " Remember those taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out , imitate their faith"

    So respect is called for, provided they speak the word of God and after checking their conduct, only imitate their faith, not the bad traits. This calls for discernment and judgement and making sure it is the word of God that a Christian follows not that of Bro. Elder.

    Certainly Paul also called for obedience to the overseers, otherwise the congregation could not function. But all Christians are responsible before God to make sure they are doing the right thing.

  • designs
    designs

    When did Jesus every ask for the opinions of others or allow himself to be taught. Every advance in the christian social construct came from those willing to be heretics.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    For the sake of argument.

    1) The Bible is true.

    2) YOU believe it.

    Does it say anything about blind obedience to GOD or especially men? Anything else about the authenticity of anything or anyone in any scroll that made it's way into the book we call the bible is for another topic. Step into the shoes of a bible believer. If you can't then don't derail the topic.

    DD

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I just want to add this link since it brings attention to the issue of blind obedience to human, and the damage it causes.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/271824/1/Rebuttal-to-Governing-Body-member-Anthony-Morris#.UuVKvdLnYdU

    DD

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    If you read the bible there will be one common thread throughout, that the Righteous Ones were those that stood up to Kings, Priests, Governments, false gods, armies, etc. to show their loyalty to the most high at any cost to themselves personally. So blind obedience I don't think so!!!!

  • steve2
    steve2

    The very best time to have asked this morally disturbing question is when Abraham tied up his son Isaac and was in the process of preparing to knife him to death as a sacrifice to the most Holy God. Isaac may share with me a preference for a less religiously driven papa.

    Deep religious convictions and egregious violence have long fitted together like hand in glove.

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