The Morman Heavies came over..

by tdogg 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Actually from what I have gathered from most mormans I have spoken with the 7 heavens are not all perminant places to be in the after life, if you play your cards right, you can move up. They accept hell as a place of torment, but not a perminant place you can be out of there nad move up the ladder to the heavens. As far a being Gods well tha's not quite accurate, but close. They beleive they will be come (those in the 7th heaven) more like cheiftons, lesser gods (more or less higher angels) so to speak and they do not get their own planet although they do get responsibilities and charges. I spoke with a morman that discribed it more like many pagan beleiv in a reincarnation, but theirs goes on in the heavens.

    I actually respect much of their efforts in the Humanitarian areas. Unlike the Dubs, they do take care of their own. They actually have their own Welfare system of sorts, if you are down in life they get together and help bring you out and never have to repay, except to pay by helping when your help is needed. I have a much higher respect for them then the JW's by far. But their beliefs are kinda strange too. But then again most xtians feel my beleifs are pretty wierd too.

    Seedy

  • circe2
    circe2

    TDogg,

    Currently I live in Layton. The congregation I attended was in Sandy. That's about 40 minutes south.

    circe

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Actually, there are many many things I like about the Mormans here in Southern California... I don't think they're kooky at all. When I was younger I attended great rock dances on Saturday nights at their Churches, along with their musicals, plays and softball teams. They never were very preachy to me at all and they DON'T SHUN difellowshiped members. I've talked with several about their beliefs, some very ordinary Christain beliefs like, Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior. They believe in the atonement (they also celebrate Christmas, birthdays and are super patriotic).

    I don't think they believe in 7 heavens... but 3 different types of heaven for the various types of people. They believe in hell as a separation from God, but not one that is fire and brimstone or everlasting. Although some of their beliefs are different, I get a kick out of reading how some people put a certain "slant" or "spin" on their beliefs to make them look kooky or sinister. Most the Mormans I know are intelligent people, some who I consider good friends (then there is this other guy name Fredrick...but that's another story).

    Edited for typos

  • jerome
    jerome

    Double edge

    I strongly suggest that you check out ex-mormon websites from the way that you are talking.

    But your right about their intellegence thought.

    Alot of them get higher education.

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and there may be hell to pay.

  • circe2
    circe2
    Actually, there are many many things I like about the Mormans here in Southern California

    One of the girls I work with is a Mormon from California. Another girl is a Mormon from Oregon.

    They both think that the Mormons in Utah are way strange.

    The Mormons here are more strict about dress. They can be strict about music. It all depends on the Ward, the Bishop and the individuals that make up a community.

    Culture plays a role too. Utah culture is very different from California culture.

    None of my LDS family members have been excommunicated and shunned for discontinuing church attendance.

    The LDS friends that I have are ASTOUNDED that JW's shun.

    My main gripe with the Mormons is that they faithfully show up at my parents house each week to collect tithe from my father and grandmother who haven't been to church in over a decade. To top it all off, my grandma has cancer. I think they should be offering some money TO her, to help with medical bills.

    The LDS people that I know that are nice, are nice because they are nice PEOPLE, not because they are LDS. Vice versa also applies.

    circe

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Jerome:

    I strongly suggest that you check out ex-mormon websites from the way that you are talking.
    Believe me, out of curiosity I have checked out many ex-mormon websites, and while I find them interesting, they're talking about OTHER people's experiences. For ME, I rely more on MY first-hand experiences to form my own opinions.

    Circe2:

    My main gripe with the Mormons is that they faithfully show up at my parents house each week to collect tithe from my father and grandmother who haven't been to church in over a decade.
    I asked one of my morman friends about this and he said that they don't do that in California, but for you to call up the Bishop and tell him that you would appreciate it if they didn't show up. He said it's no big deal...it's like telephone solicitors, you need to just get them off 'the list'.
  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Double Edge is right...Though interesting, the Ex-Mo sites can't really be taken as literally as some would like them to be. The posters on the Ex-Mo sites have their own axe to grind, based on their own unique (sometimes grossly exaggerated) experiences within the LDS community. Firsthand experience is always the best evidence.

    Double Edge is also right in that many people like to slant or distort things they've heard from someone else about Mormons to make the entire religion look kooky or weird or way out there. Actually, that often backfires when people find out through their own experience and efforts that such lurid tales are far-fetched at best.

    Imbue, Mormon women don't cry at meetings out of any oppression. Nice try, but won't fly. Impossible for women who are educated and encouraged from birth to consider themselves literal daughters of God to allow anyone to oppress them. Especially since Mormon Priesthood requires men to honor womenhood, protect women, and lead their families only with the power of "love unfeigned". Which means, no unrighteous dominion allowed. Any woman who does allow it is a fool, and the blame is her own. She'd be oppressed even if not a member of any religion. No true LDS woman is going to allow ANY man to oppress her.

    BTW, Priesthood is not considered anything that puts men above women, but only something that can help a man elevate himself to that level where a righteous woman will have arrived at on her own. Personally, I rather enjoy that concept!

    As for collecting fast offerings weekly, no. That's something done only once a month, on the first Sunday of the month. But if that is too much for them, all they have to do is ask not be be contacted next time. And if they should have an actual need for assistance due to illness, etc., then they need only contact their Bishop to receive aid. That's what fast offerings are for...To aid the needy within our own congregation and community.

    And lastly, yes, much of how the day to day is handled depends on who your Bishop is since there are many little details of congregation life that are left up to them. They aren't robots, and neither are we. All LDS are taught to think for themselves, to pray for themselves, to study for themselves, to understand God's will in their own lives. We think for ourselves. Shocking thought to some, I'm sure, but not to us.

    And no, we don't do the shunning thing. Disfellowshipping and excommunication are done only as necessary, but are not punitive in nature. One of those things where the same terms are used as are used elsewhere to mean something very different, disfellowship and excommunicate obviously not being at all as JWs experience it, from what I've read on this and other boards.

    Hope this helps clarify a few things! Take care and God bless you all!

    Susan

  • jerome
    jerome

    SusanHere

    I think I rember you from a while back when I first came to this board. From your post I believe that you are a Mormon and have relatives that form a full spectrum of other religions. [JW, Pentacostal, Baptist etc...]

    You said that no the Mormons "dont do the shunning thing."

    That statement seems not to be interly accurate as far as my knowledge goes.

    Elabourating on that statement I mean to say that I think that I have found out that the Mormon church and the WT organisation are the same in many respect.

    For example they both:

    1) Consider themselves to have the truth;

    2) Believe that their leaders are directed by God by progressive revelation; [The most notorious example of this in the mormon church is that they nolonger have the opinion that negros bare the mark of cain and have made the correct adjustments to their literature]

    3) Have extensive training programmes which prepare members for door to door preaching work. [Even though only mormon males go door to door]

    4) Consider it ok to 'lie' to non-mormons in certain instances.
    [JWs call it Theocratic War Stragety, Mormons call it giving Milk before Meat]

    5) Their leaders have vast amounts of their original documents concealed from the public and only offers limited access to even the highest ranking historians of the church.

    6) Have a loathing for Ex Members even to the point of informal shunning.

    In many ways they are very similar except the Mormons are more "main stream."

    Well really the last part is what I have a problem with I just mentioned the others to let you know i've done my homework.

    jerome

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Jerome,

    Yes, I am that Susan you spoke with quite a while back on this board, and do have family all over the religious spectrum, including a favorite and much-loved sister who has been JW for many decades and is totally devoted to it. In her case, I actually feel it has been of benefit to her in many ways, though of course I would rather she belonged to the religion I do as I think it would make her much happier. Maybe in the future. For now she is content where she is, and I won't disrupt her already troubled life by forcing the issue.

    You said it is not accurate that Mormons don't do the shunning thing. Sorry, but it is. We don't shun. In fact, those who have been df'd, or ex'd, are usually surrounded by the congregation to help them through it. We NEVER would consider making anybody "invisible" or refusing to even say hello. That is monsterous.

    You said we no longer believe "negros bear the mark of cain" and have corrected our literature. No, actually that doctrine has not changed. The only part that has changed is that the Priesthood has been extended to include them, but the reason for that is definitely beyond what I would bother to go into here since belief in there were three limitations on the descendents of Cain having that restriction, and only Heavenly Father could know when the necessary ones had been fulfilled so that it could be lifted, as we were all praying it would be. Funny how this issue was a total non-issue to our many black LDS members, and still is. If it isn't so difficult for them to deal with, why would it be for you when you aren't even LDS so it can't possibly affect you in the least.

    You said only Mormon males go door to door. NO. As I told you before, women also go door to door on full-time missions. And older men and women can also be called to serve full time or part time. My son married a sister who had served a full-time mission. Wonderful lady. She is definitely a woman. My Bishop and his wife are currently serving full time in South America. She is definitely a woman, too.

    You said we "consider it okay to 'lie' to non-Mormons in certain instances. Would you care to give an example of that, since I don't believe that is true. My missionary sons were never taught to lie, nor did they ever find it necessary. They simply tell the truth and allow the listener to accept or reject. If it is a subject they cannot discuss, such as the details of sacred ordinances beyond what a nonmember has any reason to know and which would only be pearls before swine, they simply say it is not something they discuss. Perhaps to you that is a lie or an evasion. It is not. Every religion has some things that are sacred to them which is nobody else's business. So does every family. So does every individual. Not everything has to be shared in detail just because some outsider asks. Want an example? How about asking your minister to share with you exactly what he and his wife did the last time they shared physical intimacy, IN DETAIL. Think he will tell you? Only if he is a pervert. Think you had the right to ask? Only if you are a pervert.

    As for the supposed vast amounts of original documents concealed from the public and with only limited access ... When was the last time you held the original Declaration of Independence in your own hot little hands? Is the Government being evil because they don't pass it around to everyone for them to hold, for babies to drool on, for people with colds to sneeze on? I don't think so. Important thing, rare things are ALWAYS put in temperature-controlled, light-controlled, restricted access environments. Personally, I'd love to go hold the Hope diamond, and see how great it would look on MY hand, but I rather doubt I could get the people in control of protecting it to let me do that. Do you have a clue how many original paintings are kept in the lower vault of the largest art museums in the world? Most of them have half again the number of paintings on their walls down in their vaults, and many of those have not been out of the vaults in decades for anyone to view. Guess they must be trying to deceive the public, huh? Or are they merely protecting what they know is valuable and cannot be replaced? Yeah, I think that's it. And that's what we do, too.

    You said, "A loathing for Ex Members even to the point of informal shunning." Didn't we cover that? We don't shun anybody. Our leader said, on nationwide TV during a Mike Wallace interview, "It is better to be a good Baptist than a bad Mormon. When the Baptists come to town, I've got a few people I'd like to introduce them to." He was serious. Interesting, though, no Baptists went to him to get those names. An opportunity missed on their part.

    So you see, your "problems" are really straw men. No substance at all. If you don't like us, fine. Don't. But don't base your dislike on such drivel.

    Hope this helps. Good luck and God bless!

    Susan

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Susan:

    Hear Hear, sounds like the Mormans I know, very likeable people. I may not agree with some points of religious doctrine, but then again, not everyone agrees with my beliefs.

    It's funny how people will 'label' other people with insideous characteristics and not even know them. It's like the JW's 'demonizing' the 'apostates' that frequent this board. It's so far off from reality, yet you couldn't change their minds, because they "know" the source they heard it from it true - yet the real TRUTH is this board is full of a variety of people, some highly spiritual, some very outspoken, but all, for the most part articulate and intelligent free thinkers.

    Edited for typos

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