Get out of her My People.. Jeremiah 51:45 / Revelation 18:4

by objectivetruth 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  objectivetruth

  For any Christians, I'd like to get your Opinion.

  I believe that all Organized Religions are a part of Babylon the Great. This Includes the JW Organization, in my Opinion.

  • What do you feel is Required to "Get Out of Her"?
  • Would Disasociation / Disfellowshipment be Appropriate?
  • If one Chose not to Dissasociate himself, would it be Wrong to still Attend Meetings with the hope of Turning some to the Bible?
  • When Jesus Speaks of the Scribes & Pharisees do you feel that these could be Compared to the Elders or the GB?
  • If the Scribes and Pharisees are among the Religions of Babylon the Great, what would be the Signifigance of Jesus Words at Matther 23:2,3?" " 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. "

  Thank You for your Opinions.
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  leaving_quietly

  marked for later... can't respond just now.
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  Crazyguy

  I think of the old ten tri es when thier king and priests were worshipping bal. Some of the followers of jah were able to pick up and leave but others had to stay but still worship jah in private.
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  runForever

  Matt 23 has been researched by a hebrew scholar - Nehemiah Gordon. When Jesus said the scribes and pharisees sit in the seat of Moses that was an actual chair in the synagogue so the original hebrew was something like " 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever he tells you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. " So he was saying do whatever Moses tells you through the torah but not all the tedious oral traditions of the pharisees.
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  smiddy

  Maybe you you should have titled your post , For any jehovahs witnesses , or lurkers ......

  smiddy
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  leaving_quietly

  These are my opinions only.

  What do you feel is Required to "Get Out of Her"?

  Have nothing to do with, disavow, disown.

  Would Disasociation / Disfellowshipment be Appropriate?

  I think so. If I were to disassociate myself, it would be ME taking the action of GETTING OUT. If I were disfellowshipped, it would be THEM scourging / beating / punishing in their synagogues' (Matt 10:17; Matt 23:34; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Acts 21:11) Either way, it would be appropriate as this may be one's "torture stake".

  If one Chose not to Dissasociate himself, would it be Wrong to still Attend Meetings with the hope of Turning some to the Bible?

  I would say no, not necessarily. Jesus taught in the synagogues, if you recall. However, your goal should be to turn someone to Christ, not the Bible, per se.

  YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life. - John 5:39,40

  When Jesus Speaks of the Scribes & Pharisees do you feel that these could be Compared to the Elders or the GB?

  Yes to both. Mostly the GB because directives come from the GB and the Elders are obligated to follow those directives. There are some rogue elders who add more rules to the mix.

  They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. - Matt 23:4

  Think of the 'do more, do more, do more' mantra, the "will you sacrifice" mantra and the like. What did the Christ say? "Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice'" - Matt 9:13

  YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” - Matt 15:7-9

  True, they pay lip service to the Christ, but their heart is not with him. They constantly do an end-run around him and go straight to the Father. Yet, the Christ said:

  I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14:6

  and

  I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. - John 10:9

  As far as commands of men as doctrines, just think of these: you must attend all the weekly meetings, you must have family worship night, you must build a relationship with Jehovah, men must not wear a beard, and so on

  If the Scribes and Pharisees are among the Religions of Babylon the Great, what would be the Signifigance of Jesus Words at Matther 23:2,3?" " 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. "

  This is a GREAT question. Remember, at the time, the Mosaic Law was in effect. Christ observed that Law. He also pointed out their failure to do so properly. Just a little further in Matt 23, we see these words:

  Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel! - Matt 23:23,24
  
  Christ was saying, do the things the Pharisees said, which they did say in harmony with the Law. However, don't practice the things that they do, specifically, overlooking these weightier matters.

  As far as sitting on Moses' seat, the scribes and Pharisees were placing themselves as judges over the people. That's what the seat of Moses was for. (Ex 18:13). However, this was contrary to what Christ taught at Matt 7:1, 2:

  Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.

  Who is the rightfully appointed judge?

  For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. - John 5:22, 23

  This is my perspective on this. Just opinion. Hope it helps a bit.

  ~LQ
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  objectivetruth

  Thank You everyone for your Viewpoint.

  leaving_quietly- I really appreciate your comment, thank you so much. You make some excellent points. I am going to Review everything closely to fully grasp the scriptures and thoughts, that you bring out.

  I'll respond soon.
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  Bobcat

  ObjectiveTruth:

  Regarding Matthew 23:2 I posted some comments here.

  Regarding Revelation 18:4 -

  Like you, I agree that "Babylon the Great" represents a religious entity. On the other hand, I don't believe it includes "Christendom."

  My reasoning is thus (And these are MY reasons. Others may or may not agree with me. But I don't want to accidentally hijack your topic or get it off topic.):

  • Christ's rulership begins shortly after he ascends back to heaven, not in 1914. (See sub links here for what I consider Biblical evidence.)
  • I believe Revelation to be written late 1st century. But how late is not important for this discussion.
  • I believe the message of Revelation is relevant for all Christians from that time (1st century) until Christ returns (which is still future).

  With those points in mind, what I believe about Revelation 18:1-4 is that "Babylon the Great" represents all of the religions that held sway over the Gentiles. Prior to Christianity, true worship was centered in Israel with a wall, as it were, seperating the true worship from the worship practiced by the Gentiles. (See Ephesians 2:14) Then, with Christ's sacrifice and resurrection successfully accomplished, Chrstianity becomes the true religion and it begins "invading" the Gentile domains. It was in this way that 'Babylon the Great had fallen' in Revelation 18:2 (Notice past tense in Rev. 18:2.) The way for Gentiles to become free of those religious organizations and worship the God of the Bible (as Christians) had been accomplished (without having to go to Israel under the Law). This formed the prophetic parallel of Cyrus taking the city of Babylon making way for the release of the Jews held there.

  Revelation 18:4 ("get out of her my people") represents a call to Gentiles to take the opportunity to become Christians before "Babylon the Great's" demise, which hasn't happened yet. In effect, it parallels Matthew 24:31, where Jesus describes his intention to gather all his people from the ends of the earth. (See my post here for additional explanation of Mt 24:31.)

  With this historical perspective, "Babylon the Great" could not include "Christendom." At the time of Revelation's writing there was no vast system of Christianity with its various sects. So the angel telling the words of Revelation 18:4 to John could not have been referring to the churches (regardless of how one views JWs or the churches in relation to the rest of Christianity).

  When the "great earthquake" of Revelation 16:18 occurs, all of Christianity is dealt with first in the phrase, "And the great city was split into three parts." (Revelation 16:19a; See discussion on this post and here for additional. And see here for additional on how I see all of Revelation 16:19 fulfilled)

  I tried to be as succinct as possible while still addressing your questions. With "Babylon the Great" representing non-Christian religions, it would make moot any question concerning leaving the JWs for another Christian religion (or visa versa). Rather, leaving Christianity, or [re]joining a non-Christian religion would be significant in connection with Revelation 18:4.

  Take Care
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  leaving_quietly

  @objectivetruth, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, your question could be viewed as you being at a crossroads. If that is true, I'm right there with you. I am still an active JW. Still going to meetings. Still participating in the field ministry. And the only reason I do it is because of family. If I were to boil it down the main things as to why I personally feel JWs are not the true religion, it would be these:

  1. They say Jesus is only a mediator between God and the 144,000. That makes him not a mediator between me and God, and thus I could never come to the Father through him.

  2. They say only the 144,000 are part of the New Covenant. This is similar to point #1. I completely disagree with this, and I have scriptural reasons for doing so.

  3. Jesus said at Luke 21:8, "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them." The words, "the due time has approached," is almost word-for-word what JWs have said. Notice this quote:

  "Another way we can "sleep on" is by ignoring the fact that Jehovah's time to destroy the ungodly has approached." - w12 3/15 p. 11 par. 4

  It's too eerily similar. It's easy to detect when someone claims to be Christ. It's quite another when someone is saying, 'the due time has approached' in a variety of forms, as JWs have been doing for over 100 years. The Society rarely comments on this portion of Luke 21:8, which is why, until the past year or two, this was unknown to me.
  
  I cannot ignore these things. Yet, I am stuck in at the moment, at a big crossroads. Am I prepared to possibly, and in all probability, lose my family? I am reminded of the words of the Christ:

  He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.  And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. - Matt 10:37,38

  Not that I'm telling you or even advising you what to do. I cannot do that. I am simply pointing out where I am and what I am personally thinking about all of this. This is my crossroads, too.
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  ablebodiedman

  I believe that all Organized Religions are a part of Babylon the Great. This Includes the JW Organization, in my Opinion.

  Examine Daniel 2:44

  Daniel 2:44

  　"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

  Now ask yourself these questions:

  1/ Has God previously "Set Up" any Kingdoms that have been brought to ruin?

  2/ Considering that we are now in the year 2014, what was the last Kingdom that God "Set Up" and who is the King of that Kingdom?

  3/ In regards to "Babylon The Great", what was Nebuchadnezzar helped to understand through a 7 year ordeal after proclaiming that it was himself that "Set Up" Babylon The Great?

  4/ So if you have the answer to #3 above then ............... What is the end time Babylon The Great and who set it up?

  5/ What happens after Jesus Christs Kingdom is completely destroyed by the next Kingdom that God "Sets Up"?

  6/ Why do very few Christian understand this?

  Now examine features of the last Kingdom that God will "Set Up" that has absolutely nothing in common with any of the previous ones, including Jesus Christs Kingdom:

  Revelation 21:26-27

  　And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 　But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will].

  and also read Matthew 13:40-43 and determine how many different kingdoms are being mentioned here and what kind of people exist in them.

  Matthew 13:40-43

  　Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 　The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 　and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 　At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

  abe