This topic is typical of this forum. Too many people who couldn't give a rip about facts and who really should be kept far away from a keyboard. The level of intelligence on this forum depresses me. I shouldn't be surprised; JWs are the least educated religious group in the world. I understand why so many were attracted to JWs in the first place, with their judgmental, pre-conceived, prejudicial, narrow minded, arrogant, pious, holier than thou attitudes; I wonder how they were ever mart enough to leave its grips.
Woody Allen speaks out
by NewYork44M 131 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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steve2
Hey DJS steady on. While I have found some posters resorting to seemingly sarcastic asides and using judgemental language and flimsy reasoning, it is healthy to see a range of views expressed. And, while I do not agree with some of the views here, I can see where people are coming from and even acknowledge certain points. To suggest the level of exchanges reflects the relative lack of education of the JWs is uncalled for and adds little to the discussion.
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adamah
DJS said- I wonder how they were ever mart enough to leave its grips.
Well DJS, that's kinda the point: somehow they did, and JWN is a discussion forum that offers an opportunity to grow, to get a handle on one's emotional reactions and hopefully overcome the vulnerabilities in thinking that explains WHY they fell for the easy solution offered by the JWs, in the first place.
I've seen some actually grow and evolve in their thinking over time, and others who merely continue with the same ol' dogmatic mindset or preference for simple answers to complex issues, tendencies which likely led them into looking at the JWs and saying, "You know, those JWs seem like MY kind of people! Where do I sign up!?"
Like I said, this case is interesting since the way people respond to it explains more about them than anything: it's like a Rohrsach test of one's morality, and Woody Allen couldn't have scripted a scenario (and Mia Farrow couldn't have portrayed a character) as complex as this, with elements of revenge, hatred, control, etc all playing a factor. It's definitely a 'life imitates art' deal.
In the end, Woody's still a famous actor/director, Mia's still a talented actor and activist, and Ronan is still born with a silver spoon in his mouth that guarantees we'll be seeing more of him in the future (Hollywood royalty), all with opportunities and wealth up the wazoo that us mere mortals can only dream of. Soon-Yi isn't complaining, since think about it: she was abandoned by a Korean prostitute (!), and ended up jet-setting by Woody's side and shopping in Paris boutiques, etc.
The rich and famous celebrities live in a World where the same rules don't apply to them as to the rest of us hoi polloi, and that's the TRUTH, just the way it is about how the World operates (there is no guaranteed happy endings, what the JWs promise). Our morality doesn't apply to them, since they're not posting and reading internet forums, LOL!
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DJS
Steve,
I have no problem with differing viewpoints. It is the lack of rational, factual arguments used to support them that distress me. I won't apoplogize for my statements about education or intelligence. When posters read rational factual statements about events and then post the same inane comments all over again as statements of fact, it is what it is. It isn't intelligent. It isn't rational. It reflects poorly on the poster and adds nothing to the discussion. We waste our time. At least qualify the statements. Take this OP for example. We continue to see the same ridiculous statements over and over again. It's as if they can't read or think. I think it is called for. And I'm not suggesting. I'm stating. The lack of intellect and ability to think rationally and objectively is rife on this forum, probably worse than I've experienced anywhere else.
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DJS
Adamah,
Well stated. When I left the Borg. I LEFT THE BORG. I got as far away as possible and opened my mind to the brave new world. I re-tooled my thinking and alll things JW. If I express more than a little frustration at some of the posters so be it. They need to be shaken a bit. Look at my profile. See where I've been and who I am. I have been an investigator, an analyst, a counter terrorist expert, a college professor (2 colleges). I have investigated incidents not dissimilar from this one. Facts please. Facts. Objective rational analysis. I do not give a rip about anyone's feelilngs, perceptions, beliefs, thoughts, judgments, attitudes or closed mindedness. Not a rip. If they post, the content is subject to any of us ripping it to shreds if it is so deserving.
Am I more than a bit surprised by the lack of objective, rational, intelligent arguments on this forum? Of course; I don't hide it. Should I have been surprised? No.
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Apognophos
Methinks you have too-high expectations for a forum of average Joes. This is a popular topic about someone famous, so I don't know why you expect dispassionate analysis. This isn't planet Vulcan. You'll find more thoughtful commentary on the academic topics like the basis for dating Babylonian tablets or the molecular processes of evolution. I don't know why you'd expect it here. You saw the Zimmerman threads, didn't you?
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awakenyr2004
Geez DJs perhaps you should find a new forum if you are so unhappy with people here. FOrgive us for having an opinion in this very public battle.
Obviously none of us really know the true story here. If you only want facts perhaps you should stay out of these type of discussions. Just a thought . . .
Peace :)
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DJS
Awaken and Apognophos
I think you are right. I expect too much. I've known for a long time that this forum isn't for me. I take exception to your comments about facts. These aren't discussions; they are debates. Facts are all that matter. Those who don't bring them should stay out of the discussions.
I don't know the true story either, and I haven't taken sides. The only thing worse than a self made stupid person is a self-made arrogant stupid person. And the only thing worse than that is a self made arrogant stupid judgmental person. There are a lot of those on this forum. Their lack of intellect is exceeded only by their arrogance. They don't want to be confused by the facts. They quite comfortably closed their minds a long time ago and nothing will open them.
What consenting adults do is of no concern of mine, regardless of ages. It is no one's business. The lack of character enters ONLY because of who it was, his GF's daugter, but even that is misinterpreted by the inane. Jerry Springer would have liked to have gotten ahold of the whole fam-damily.
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steve2
I find myself at risk of seeing valid points in what DJS has said AND in the direct responses of others to what DJS said. What does that make me? Showing some ability to see a valid view where and when it is expressed at the least, I hope.
As someone who sees the need to move away from simple black and white thinking on this hot topic, I'm impressed by the level of responses in this thread. Okay, a few posters have resorted to labeling and name calling - and even making innuendo about what sort of people "defend" Allen, but in the main, some thoughtful arguments have emerged on different sides posted here - comments that reveal some careful thinking on this easily emotive topic. While I could never patronisingly say, "Well done people!" It comes to mind when I think of DJS's over-generalized putdowns. So, come on, DJS, don't lapse into bruised, "I don't belong here" talk. You've as much right here as anyone else. All you did was perhaps overly and selectively focus on some who have resorted to name calling, and you overlooked the considered comments of many here.Not everyone who robustly disagrees with you has done what you accuse them of doing.
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adamah
Well, it's easy to get trapped into the "just the facts, Ma'am" mode, too, since this IS a public forum, and most people just don't think like that, and aren't able to dispassionately analyze evidence with a detached perspective, suspending judgment until after all the evidence is examined. And as someone who tells myself I AM able to keep my emotions under control, someone else would say I'm a hot-headed doofus (and there's plenty here who'd agree with that assessment, LOL)!
But in the end, none of the comments posted here matter, so it's all just an exercise for personal growth; hopefully some are gaining the ability to see this from the other side's perspective and practice their emotional control, where refusing to consider other perspectives is why many ended up in the dogmatic JWs. Certainly nothing here is worth getting too wound up about, since it's not 'life or death' talking about what happened 22 yrs ago....
I'd say a 'yellow flag' is if you see this case and tell yourself it's a black and white situation, i.e. saying Woody molested Dylan or he clearly didn't: no one is able to know for sure what happened 22 yrs ago. And even saying, "Well, we don't know for sure, BUT I think he's X...." is ALSO questionable reasoning, since that's the fallacy of 'argument from ignorance', basically admitting there's insufficient evidence on which to to decide, but then coming to a conclusion anyway, one way or the other....