Just The FACTS Please!!

by Unclepenn1 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    This is a new post but the continuation of a thread that was called 'Wanting to believe in God'. I thought the information was important, so I figured it would be best to start something new, rather than hijack a previous topic. Two people made similar comments, which I believe to be mistaken, and not what the facts of history tell us. I will put forth my argument here, and anyone is welcome to join in.

    [I spent 2 hours writing this, so please stick with me, I feel it is important to make things clear]

    CrownBoy wrote>Unclepenn, none of the "Christian reforms" you speak of have anything to do with Christianity[edit]

    >> It was only when Christianity became more secular (and when Islam was secular), that any great societal advancement was made. Human rights? What about the crusades and slavery? Christanity endorsed both these practices (the later very explictly).

    I believe all of these assertions to be seriously flawed, and I hope to prove that here today.

    It is easy to characterize religion as a blood thirsty enterprise. History seems to be strewn with the wreckage of witch hunts, crusades, and religious jihad. The recent terrorist attacks have added a new twist: Our battle is not against terrorism per se, but against religion that claims to be true.

    Lets start with exaggerations. When talking with most people, I find that they aggressively exaggerate the facts when it comes to religious crimes. Many conflicts that at first glance appear to be religious in nature, are actually political or cultural wars that divide along religious lines. The strife in northern Ireland is not a theological dispute about Catholicism vs. Protestantism per se, but rather a cultural power struggle between two groups of people. In like manner, much of the conflict in the Middle East is the result of ethnic hostilities, not genuine religious differences.

    The Crusades, the Inquisition, some of the religious wars of the Reformation, and the Salem witch trials, on the other hand, were more Theological. Even so, the record is not as grim as many make it. Thousands of witches were not burned at the stake,. The Salem witch trials resulted in only 19 executions, before it was stopped by Christians. The Spanish Inquisition involved thousands, and the crusades tens of thousands, not millions as most assert. (1)

    Of course it is tragic when any lives are taken. Injustice isn't justified because the numbers diminish. But an accurate accounting does serve to put things in perspective, especially when one considers the alternative. Has atheism fared any better?

    The simple fact of history is that the greatest evil has always resulted from denial of God, not pursuit of Him. Grab an older copy of the Guinness Book of World Records and turn to the category 'Judicial' subheading "Crimes: Mass Killings". You will find that carnage of unimaginable proportions has resulted not from religion, but from institutionalized atheism.

    Guinness reports, 'The greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one sovereign against another is the 26.3 million Chinese killed during the regime of Moa Zedong between 1949 and May 1965. The Walker report published by the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary in July 1971 placed...the total death toll in China since 1949 between 32.25 and 61.7 million.(2)

    In the USSR, Nobel prize winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimated that state repression and terrorism took over 66 million lives from 1917 to 1959 under Lenin, Stalin and Hrushchev. (3) [Which, incidentally, makes a Hitler small potatoes}

    The worst per capita genocide happened in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. According to Guinness, more than one third of the 8 million Khmers were killed between april 1975 and January 1979 (4)

    The greatest evil does not result from people zealous for God, it results when people are convinced there is no God to whom they must answer.

    Also, if one points to the bloodshed of 'Christian' evils and says that means it is a religion of hatred, one must ask the question, 'Is oppression and bloodshed either a religious duty of Christianity or a logical application of the teachings of Christ? ' One cannot hold Christianity responsible when so called Christians violate the written instructions. Jesus was quite clear on this 'If you love me, you will obey what I command' and His command extended to love even one's enemies (Luke 10:29-37).

    Jesus Himself warned of interlopers, wolves in sheep clothing. Of whom He will say 'I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice <I>lawlessness</I>" (Matt 7:23) SO, we are not even dealing with genuine believers to begin with, but rather imposters, pretenders.

    Liberty wrote >>>>Sorry, but as far as I can see humanity was not changed by this event 2000 years ago any more than it was by works of Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Loa Tzu,Confucious, or the Buddha.

    Now, lets talk about what Christianity has done for the world....Modern education owes its origins to Christianity. The reason is simple, one of the goals of the Reformation was to get the Bible into the hands of the common man, in the language of the common man. This did no good if he didnÕt know how to read. Primary public education was part of the foundation of the Reformation. [ for more specific historical information, see the book 'Christianity through the Centuries', by historian Earle Cairns]

    In fact, all of the Ivy league schools were started with theological intent- Yale, Harvard, Brown, Cornell, et al. Our educational system was founded on the need to teach citizens the Bible and to provide leadership for church and state. This is the pattern wherever Christianity goes. In 'A Concise History of the Christian World Mission' Herbert Kane reports, 'In China...missionaries....operated thousands of elementary schools, as well as hundreds of High Schools, as well as thirteen full-fledged Christian universities'.

    <B>Missionaries made Africa literate. Kane notes, 'There are 860 known languages and dialects in Africa. A hundred years ago, fewer than twenty had a written form. Since then, five hundred have been reduced to writing-all the work of missionaries. </B>

    These dedicated Christians created written languages for many African tribes where no writing existed. 'The missionaries had to start from scratch-inventing scripts, writing textbooks, and opening schools. For many decades they were the sole purveyors of education. In 1923 only one hundred of the 6,000 schools in Africa were government schools. As late as 1961, 68 percent off all the school children in Africa were still in mission schools.(5)

    In the 19th century, William Wilberforce spent a lifetime working to abolish slavery in England and the British commonwealth. Cairns records, 'Slavery was ended in British possessions by an act passed just before Wilberforce's death in 1833', an achievement, he adds, that 'would have been impossible without the work of Wilberforce and his evangelical friends in Parliament. (6)

    Opposition to slavery by Christians here in America led us into the Civil War. Their objection was based on the Christian belief that human beings are free people before God and ought not to be owned by anyone else. The conviction was the moral foundation for abolition.

    David Livingston, an adventurer who charted the dark regions of Africa, was actually a missionary. 'By his travels in Central Africa [Livingston] exposed the Arab slave trade as 'the open sore of the world' (7) In fact, it was Christian missionaries who entreated European powers to intervene in Africa to stop the slave trade carried on by the Arabs.

    George Mueller relied on prayer and selfless dedication to God to start orphanages all over 19th century England. Muellers contemporary and fellow countryman John Howard devoted his life and his sizable fortune to prison reform. HIstorian Earle Cairns notes that 'Before his death in 1790 from jail fever, which he caught while inspecting a vile prison, he traveled fifty thousand miles and spent thirty thousand pounds of his own money on prison reform. (8)

    In America, people like William Booth with the Salvation Army and Chuck Colson with the Prison Fellowship have worked tirelessly to alleviate staggering human suffering.

    Historians readily acknowledge that Methodism ranks with the French Revolution and the Industrial Revolution as one of the great historical phenomena of the 18th century.(9)

    Cairns reports, 'Most of the social reforms in England between 1787 and 1850 were the outcome of evangelical effort for the poor. Kane notes 'In China, the missionaries operated 270 hospitals. These accounted for more than half of all the hospitals in the country. Today India has 450 hospitals in the Christian Medical Association.(10)

    For every well-known servant of Christ to the poor and downtrodden there have been thousands upon thousands more who served quietly, unnamed and unnoticed.

    Herbert Kane sums up the noble contribution of the true followers of Christ: " The missionaries of the 19th century were a special breed of men and women. Single handedly and with great courage they attacked the social evils of their time: child marriage, the immolation of widows, temple prostitution,and untouchability in India; footbinding, opium addiction, and the abandoning of babies in China; polygamy, the slave trade, and the destruction of twins in Africa. In all parts of the world they opened schools, hospitals, clinics, medical colleges, orphanages, and leprosaria. They gave succor and sustenance to the dregs of society cast off by their own communities. At great risk to themselves and their families they fought famines, floods, pestilences, and plagues. They were the first to rescue unwanted babies, educate girls, and liberate women"(11)

    "Above all", Kane sums up, "they gave the nonChristian world the most liberating of all messages, the gospel of Christ. They converted savages into saints; and out of this raw material they built the Christian church, which is today the most universal of all institutions".

    Now, you can make the claim that a Joseph Smith has done just as much for the world, or Mohammed or Buddha. But if that really is your claim, I think you are not being honest with yourself, or the facts. I have merely stated a few things that have changed in the world from the teachings of Jesus. I have barely scratched the surface. Take a look around you. See any hospitals that were built by believers? See any homeless shelters or battered womens centers that focus on the gospel of Christ? I think the answer would be yes. I appreciate you for taking the time to read all of this. I hope you found it informative.

    Loving Him,

    Penn

    1- Dennis Prager 'Ultimate Issues' Sep 1989
    2- Donald McFarland 'Guinness Book of World Records-1992 ed.{The numbers are substantiated by most encyclopedias}
    3-Ibid
    4-Ibid
    5-J. Herbert Kane "A Concise History of the Chrisitan World Mission' :1982
    6-Earle E. Cairns 'Christianity Through the Centuries' :1981
    7-Kane, 100
    8-Cairns, 397
    9- Ibid, 382
    10- Kane, 168
    11- Ibid
    ¨ Stand to Reason 2002

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I kina sorta agree with you. It's not about RELIGION, nor is it about ATHEISM

    It's about RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.

    Both Cristians and Atheists and Wiccans and Druids and every other kind of religious form of worship you can think of is capable of practicing

    religious TOLERANCE,

    religious INTOLERANCE,

    or someyhing in between.

    Just my 1/2 cents worth...

    UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    We then can conclude '.....that nothing is defiled in itself; only where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled.' Romans 14:14

    Guest 77

  • Soledad
    Soledad

    It's not about RELIGION, nor is it about ATHEISM
    It's about RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE.

    I would add to that FANATICISM, EXTREMISM, FUNDAMENTALISM.....

    Who needs initiative when being pushed?

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Uncle, your penn is mighter than the sword! I commend you for your effort to articulate what needs to be said. Now! Can you in fairness give attribution to Islam? What was its contribution to civilization? I think many would be surprised to see the list especially in the fields of higher math (algebra, etc) medicine, administrative systems...on and on.

    Thanks fer da post.

    carmel

  • Prisca
    Prisca

    Excellent essay Penn. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

  • crownboy
    crownboy

    Great post, Penn.

    However, as I asserted earlier, Christanity was still the cause of many problems in the world. You, for example, point out about the anti- abolition movement, which indeed many Christains were a part of (Quakers were in it for a long time), but were the people they were fighting against not also Christain? Could not the same people rightfully justify their actions by using the bible? Did not many churches endorse slavery, and in the middle ages enforce fuedalism (essentially slavery)?

    Luther & Calvin were tyrants once they got their power (especially Calvin), and there was still a high illiteracy rate among "regular folk" long after the Reformation. Indeed, many institutions like Brown, Yale& Harvard started off as religious institutions, but today that is not their main concern because we have more important things to worry about (do the brightest minds still go to theological seminaries?). Indeed, we would have had institutions such as those eventually come up, it just so happened we slowly converted them from the religious schools. During their years as "religious schools", how many people graduated that made great technological contributions to our world? How many became religious men who endorsed slavery?

    I'm not here trying to discredit any of the things Christains have done, all I'm saying is that Christanity (i.e. the bible), was not the pure motivating force, the people also had love for fellowman, something you don't need the bible for and something many of the Christain leaders lacked (and still lack). Basically, I'm saying if God (through the bible)caused Wilberforce to see slavery was wrong, it should have been very obvious to all Christains. Wilberforce would have been a good man whether he was a Christain or not, because if he wanted to he could have justified slavery using the bible. He made a decision based on his own goodness, and the goodness of the other Christain's who saw slavery was wrong inspite of the bible's endorsement. (BTW: The Civil War was fought first and formost to keep the Union together. Abolition of slavery was a big issue, of course, but not the main one that got white northern men to war.)

    I would also dear to guess that a higher percentage of people have died from Christain wars than from "atheist" wars. Of course, they've been no wars fought over "atheism" that I can think of, and I can think of many wars where religion is involved. Maybe these "atheists wars" had the same sociological reasons behind their being fought as the "religious" ones, so therefore religion wasn't an issue?

    Life isn't valuable because "God says so", so atheist value life just as much as anyone else, BTW. To say they won't "think twice" about killing because "there is no God" is insulting. (BTW: Hitler was a Christain).

  • The Alchemist
    The Alchemist

    GREAT GREAT Post!! Thank you! There is a lot of unbalanced thinking in regard to Christian missionaries and workers. Few look at the good that they have done for humanity. Thanks for your work. I am going to print this out and save it
    Dave

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Like it or not, UnclePenn, any advances that Christianity has made has been at the expense of too many lives.

    Like it or not, Uncle Penn, Christianity's record of religious tolerance/acceptance is no better than any other religious group.

    And like it or not, Uncle Penn, Christianity's treatment of women and children and minorities is no better than that of any other religious group.

    Although the examples you cited earlier are admirable, still, they are recent history, when most religious groups are growing in the humanitarian fields. Christianity is almost 2000 years old.

    This is a futile argument. Nobody can win this because history is already written, and cannot be changed.

    Advances in the social and cultural humanities are taking place RIGHT NOW among ALL walks of life,

    among ALL forms of religious expression, throughout the ENTIRE RANGE of human endeavors.

    Just the facts...

  • Liberty
    Liberty

    Hi Unclepenn1,

    Thanks for the reply. Please believe me that my responses are not personal attacks but just friendly debate. Like so many things in life the facts are often indisputable yet their interpretation is open to debate, which complicates the matter. Unfortunately, for your argument's sake, our interpretations are quite different and I believe my interpretations are more accurate. It seems to me that you have attributed social advancement(facts) within a culture primarily to the religion of that culture (an iterpretation).

    Using your logic, the great advances of the Pagan Greco-Roman, East Indian, and Chinese cultures should be attributed to their religions. Yet you, I'm sure, would say that the Pagan religions of these cultures were false and perhaps even evil. In short, the truth or goodness of a culture's religion is not always responsible for that culture's advancement. It also follows that a Christian culture could have a completly false religion and still have social or scientific advancement despite its religion. Logic dictates that if it's true for one then it should be true for the other. The same could be said of an individual, a person could be a Morman or a Moonie and that person may be brilliant and ethical. Is that person brilliant and ethical because of their religion? If so, then the Moonies must be the true religion. Does the same follow if this person is stupid and evil? Does this then mean that their religion made them stupid and evil and that the religion is therefore false? I'm sure you can now see the fallacy of your theory that Christianity is responsable for our culture's advancements. Individuals and cultures are so complex that one cause (religion) cannot explain all results. I'm out of time for now but I hope to revisit this later if possible.

    Thanks,
    Liberty

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