The Revelation of Saint John the Divine

by Caupon 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Caupon

  Apparently there are anointed members of God's earthy organization, or the Jehova's Christian Witness church. My understanding of this is that those select few appointed by holy spirit directed by he who is above will rule over the other sheep with the Jesus in heaven. Their biblical proof of this is supposedly in the Acts of the Apostles and the last book, the Revelation. 144,000, mentioned in God's word, is the sum of all those ruling with the lord himself, the Jesus. I'm particularly invested in Revelation's forth verse in chapter 7 which reads: 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of all children of Israel. Then in the following verses it mentions sets of twelve thousand people from individual tribes.

  This is where I get my question. Are the witnesses who claim to be anointed today, including the Governing body, apart of these tribes mentioned here in verse 4? I asked this question to a sister who I was studying with and her answer was that the Governing body and all the anointed are in fact the descendants of those sealed. But aren't those numbers mentioned through verses 5-8 in fact of those servants of God back then who were sealed in their foreheads, as verse 3 states? If the sister is right, then that would mean that Jehova knew way back then that the present day anointed would be apart of the ruling and that most of those twelve thousands had not been born yet.
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  Honesty

  There are no Jehovah's Witnesses who meet the criteria at Romans chapter 8.

  Any that were ahve already made their exit from the Jehovah's Witnesses and are now loaylly serving Jesus.

  The Watchtower's anointed is a sham based on lies.
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  alanv

  You can make Revelation say whatever you want it to. People have done that for centuries and JWs just joined the others. They have changed the meaning of Revelation as soon as it was obvious their last guess was wrong. People will probably carry on doing the same for centuries yet
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  Band on the Run

  Elaine Pagels, a NT scholar, recently wrote a book about Revelation. She wrote that John was a radical Jewish Christian opposed to Paul's teaching. Most Church Fathers found Revelation a great embarassment. John's prophecy was an utter failure. He predicted the end of Rome. Christianity had only recently become the official Roman religion. Bishops once tortured and exiled were now living and ruling from elaborate palaces. Egypt was an important center for Christians. Thousands of monks lived in the deserts. St. Anthony was their leader. They had few rules. The bishop in the city, Athansius, wanted their allegiance.

  He co-opted the power of St. Anthony by writing a biography of Anthony. Athanasius recast Revelation. Rome was no longer the enemy but the monks. They were heretics. He advocated for Revelation during the canonization process. Through political machinations, Revelation made it into the canon altho most bishops hated it. The prophecy was used against dissenting Christians.

  So, almost from its creation, Revelation was controversial. It makes no sense. Many churches, with bishops opposed to it, rarely used it. If you think a magic code was broken in the late 1800s, you think so. I do not. Revelation, more than any other book, makes the church look crazy. Since the Church adopted Pauline theology for the most part, it seems odd than a book opposed to Paul would end the canon. Its wackiness makes it an ideal vehicle for religious hustlers.
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  never a jw

  Band on the Run

  Good summary of the book. I just read it and your summary is pretty much what I remember best of it.
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  kaik

  I agree with the Band... Nobody really knows who was inteneded audience of John and what he meant. It was confusing book since the 2nd century AD and the Christian community was divided on this book. Nobody really know or understand what John want to say, except John himself. There was already debate during his lifetime that John and other apostles disagreed with Paul. Look Rev 2:2 which is sometimes understand as a criticism of Paul who claimed to be apostle, yet he never met Jesus.

  JW doctrine flip flop on the annoited and the sealed 144,000. Russell believed that the number was sealed in 1878. Rutherford changed it to 1935. Until 1990's the number of annoited decreased, today is it is twice that much. Also JW back in earlier years belived that the number of people whose name was in the book of life was set to 144000x144000.
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  suavojr

  Nice info bandontherun
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  Caupon

  Thank you for the information on the Revelation clincher. While Revelation and John were unneeded, all biblical texts are pretty wacky.

  Kaik, that is obscene. One of the many examples of how the Jehova's Christian Witness church changes things not according to scripture at all. The members are completely required to accept any and all doctrinal changes. I get that the Watchtower corporation is falsely dependent on the sealed souls of the Revelation but does verses 3-8 have anything at all to do with anyone living today or was it meant for only the people at that time? I think I know the answer but I just want to be sure I have not missed anything.
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  kaik

  To Caupon. According to Studies in the Scriptures, Russell explains Rev.5:11 as

  Of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.— "As the number of the Bride of Christ is to be 144,000, it would be reasonable to think that each number of this class may have 144,000 to look after, as 144,000x144,000 equals 20,736,000,000...

  ...And there were sealed 144,000.— On this point one of Pastor Russell's coworkers has well said: "That this is not a symbolical, but an exact number, seems certain from the fact that, in the same chapter reference is made to another company, also spirit-begotten.

  With the end of the Gospel age, the narrow way to immortality will close, because the select "little flock" that it was designed to test and prove will have been completed.

  The message was to sound forth from the Lord's consecrated people during the Harvest of the Gospel Age, from 1878 to 1918.

  A like work was to be accomplished in Spiritual Israel, Christendom, after the Lord's Second Advent in 1874. The man raised up, "set upon his feet," and given wisdom, grace and power for the task, was Pastor Russell.

  Russell belived that the sealed people were in his generation to whom he was part of. Since nobody is alive anymore born in 1870's, WT conveniently moved the sealed 60 something year later. But it has been almost 80 years since this event, WT got a new light and allowed increasing number of people to partake.
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  transhuman68

  LOL, Russell was wrong of course. The Bible writers had no use for actual numbers in the real world- it just didn't occur to them to think like that. All the chapter and verse numbers in the Bible were inserted many centuries later by more practical people. Virtually all the numbers in the Bible are symbolic, have meanings, and are used to link themes together- which is why the numbers forty, seven, and three and a half occur so often. Twelve times twelve times a thousand just means the Christian church- there is nothing more to it than that.