My chat with an elder

awakening

My second chat with an elder focused on the lack of any archaeological evidence that the exodus happened. Quite simply it seems to me that a company of 3 million plus livestock could not possibly be sustained in the wilderness, and if they were there then there would definately be evidence. One writer described the size of the crowd as - imagine 10 people stood side by side, well the line would be 120 miles long with a 3 million crowd.

The elder went through the insight book and discussed the organization of the crowd which has the encampment spread into divisions etc. This in my mind makes the camp so huge that i'm not sure the wilderness was big enough to contain it! The elder said he was not concerned by the lack of any archaeological evidence since they may find something in years to come. He said that infact his faith had been strengthened by the discussion.

We then got on to prophecy and my view that no modern day prophecy has been fulfilled apart from the organization self fulfilling prophecy. My example was the crazy one from the revelation book that the trumpet blasts were prophecy fulfilled by historic assemblies!! He seemed to pale when i mentioned this and i got the feeling that he even thought this was strange, the subject was quickly changed.

He said that the book of isaiah has been positively proven to be writen in advance of the events it foretold. How would you answer?

sir82

He said that the book of isaiah has been positively proven to be writen in advance of the events it foretold. How would you answer?

I'd answer, no it hasn't, and point him to any of dozens of scholarly works refuting it.

Of course, as a JW, he wouldn't read them, and would likely accuse you of apostasy, so go at your own risk.

punkofnice

The elder said he was not concerned by the lack of any archaeological evidence since they may find something in years to come.

That's his confirmation bias kicking in in order to prove the WBT$ is correct.

He said that infact his faith had been strengthened by the discussion.

Who's he trying to fool?

He seemed to pale when i mentioned this and i got the feeling that he even thought this was strange, the subject was quickly changed.

Nice one.

He said that the book of isaiah has been positively proven to be writen in advance of the events it foretold. How would you answer?

I wouldn't answer. I'd leave him to make his own mind up. His positive proof will be down to his own confirmation bias.

...........or, I might say; 'Prove it without the use of the WBT$ publications.'

alonein321

About the Exodus, try reading the book The Bible Unearthed from Israel Finkelstein. It proves that, basically, we can't trust in any of the stories of the Bible before the division of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, even Solomon and David existence is chalenged.

But about the book of Isaiah there's two main points you need to know how to address:

1) The oldest records are the Dead Sea Scrolls, that date back to around 250 BCE. Take a look in detail if you want. So none of the prophecies about the destruction of Israel and Judah, which took place between 720 and 586 BCE, are proved to be foretold.

2) They like to argue that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proves that the prophecies about the Messiah in the book of Isaiah were made in advance. This one is tricky, and not all of them will admit it is wrong. The life of Jesus as we know by means of the four canonical gospels was written to fit specific passages of the old testament that weren't written with that purpose. All the supposed prophecies about the life of the Messiah, including his birth place, were poetical or prophetical passages that were not pointing to the Messiah. This reinterpretation of the old testament was made the writers of the gospels to convince the jews and the gentiles that Jesus was expected. Is obvious why the success rate among the jews was so low, since they knew the scriptures and its original context, so they refused to accept this reinterpretation. Also, the gospels were anonnimous, and you should take a look at the proccess of autorship attribution and the selection of these specific four gospels among a dozen of others written at that same period. The real life, activities, miracles, birth place, and many other things about Jesus is uncertain and is contradicted between the many gospel writers of that time, since none them were eye witnesses of his life.

So, basically, what the WT does today with the book of Revelation, is an old pratice that the gospel writers employed: trying to fit random passages of the scriptures in some meaningless historical event. I surely can sort out a dozen of random scriptures to prove that the Russian assault against Ukraine was also foretold by moses, samuel, job, or any other supposed writer of the past.

respectful_observer

My example was the crazy one from the revelation book that the trumpet blasts were prophecy fulfilled by historic assemblies!! He seemed to pale when i mentioned this and i got the feeling that he even thought this was strange, the subject was quickly changed.

Made me laugh....I remember sitting at a DC in the mid-90's when they had us all verbally agree in unison to several pre-written "declarations" (can't recall the specific term at the moment, must need more coffee). I sat there thinking to myself, "This is bizzarre and feels a little 'culty'. Are they doing this now, so that in X number of years they can come back and say that this convention fulfilled some obscur Bible prophecy like they did in the Revelation book?"

gingerbread

Confirmation bias is the problem.

punkofnice

Vidiot

respectful_observer - "I remember sitting at a DC in the mid-90's when they had us all verbally agree in unison to several pre-written 'declarations' (can't recall the specific term at the moment, must need more coffee). I sat there thinking to myself, 'This is bizzarre and feels a little culty'. Are they doing this now, so that in X number of years they can come back and say that this convention fulfilled some obscur Bible prophecy like they did in the Revelation book?"

Damn, I remember that now.

The thunderous applause and enthusiastic participation seemed weird to me, too (particularly since the "declarations" seemed so generic and par-for-the-course), and I was a dutiful rank-and-filer at the time.

baltar447

I also recall this idiotic "resolution" and my ex at the time was bothered by it as was I. She barely heard what it was and felt angry that she was expected to just agree to something when she didn't know what she was agreeing with.

Pyramid God

I had a similar moment when I met with the elders. They fought with me about 607 until I opened one of the older books in the library (something about Babylon, I forget the title), and added up the dates the WT gave for the Babylonian kings. When I showed them that it added up to 587, they were stupified. They literally had their mouths hanging open. After an uncomfortable silence they said that maybe I should write to the society.

Fat chance.

transhuman68

LOL, it has been known for decades that Isaiah was written in three stages-

Isaiah preached in Jerusalem between 740 and 700. He was a great poet and an acute politician, but above all he was a prophet. He exerted considerable influence on his time. Two centuries later, some disciples inspired by him laid claims to his name, and their work was added to his. So we have to distinguish between the book of Isaiah (which has 66 chapters) and the prophets: Isa. 1-39 is partly the work of Isaiah; Isa. 40-55 comes from a prophet living at the time of the exile, and Isa. 56-66 from a disciple after the exile.

Plenty of information at Wikipedia too; but nothing will convince someone who believes the GB is always right...

My chat with an elder

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