JW's Never Closed the Door On A Russian King of the North

by scotoma 28 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BluesBrother

  They do like to cover all bases.....

  'Daniels Prophecy' pp 280/281 published 1999

  21 With the disbanding of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the king of the north suffered a serious setback. Who will be this king when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled? Will he be identified with one of the countries that were part of the former Soviet Union? Or will he change identity completely, as he has done a number of times before? Will the development of nuclear weapons by additional nations result in a new arms race and have a bearing on the identity of that king? Only time will provide answers to these questions. We are wise not to speculate. When the king of the north embarks on his final campaign, the fulfillment of prophecy will be clearly discerned by all who have Bible-based insight.

  So, when the prophecy is clearly being fulfilled then we will tell you who the characters are (with insight ) ...That is like trying to forecast the result of a football game after it has been played ...Big deal ! A "prophet" would tell us in advance..

  NB What is Dan 11.45 saying?

  "And he will plant his palatial tents between [the] grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

  Of which the Wt said:

  Wt 93 11/1 p21
  "in the prophecy’s fulfillment, the enraged king of the north conducts a military campaign against God's People"

  I do not know how Russia could achieve that
• 

  scotoma

  You don’t always have to wait for time to disprove an
  interpretation of prophecy. Whether or not there really is any
  truth to prophecy, sometimes an interpretation is totally out of
  synchrony with what the actual words of the Bible are saying.
  Here is an example which I mentioned I would deal with.

  July 15 Watchtower 1981 says:

  "Concerning the "king of the north," the prophecy states: "He
  will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no
  helper for him." (Dan. 11:45) Moreover, a parallel prophecy
  says of the Anglo-American World Power, also pictured by the "king of
  the south," that "it will be without hand that he will be broken."-Dan. 8:25.

  This expresses the JW notion that the King of the North and
  King of the South both are destroyed directly by the army of
  faithful Angels led by Jesus at Armageddon. Is that really what
  the Bible says?

  Look at the last time the King of the South is mentioned in the
  Bible.

  Daniel 11:40 “And in the time of the end the King of the
  South will engage with him (King of the North) in a pushing,
  and against Him the King of the North will storm...

  The rest of Daniel 11 has only one dominant actor which is the
  King of the North which seems to proceed with his plan and
  no one is standing in his way. The King of the South is not
  mentioned again - ever. If the King of the South was so
  important in the pushing and shoving why isn’t he mentioned
  as the King of the North expands his aggression to the extent
  that he will “actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold
  and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt.”

  Daniel chapter 11 ends describing the end of the King of the
  North: “and he will have to come all the way to his (King of
  the North) end, and there will be no helper for him.

  OK so we know the King of the North has some kind of
  sudden end. We assume it is by supernatural means similar to
  the stone that is cut out of the mountain, not by human hands,
  and which struck the iron/clay feet and brought the whole
  sequence of human rule to an end.

  Whatever happened to the King of the South? Since nothing
  is heard from the King of the South after the King of the North
  goes forth in a great rage it is more than likely that it was
  destroyed by the “human hands” of the King of the North. How
  else can you account for the exit of the King of the South from
  this final scenario?

  The Watchtower believes that the King of the South won’t be
  destroyed by the King of the North because they assert that the
  King of fierce countenance that is destroyed without hands at
  Dan. 8: 25 is the Anglo-American combine. They teach that
  the United States profaned the sanctuary.

  When you compare the description of the Little Horn in
  Daniel 8 it fits nicely with the description of the King of the
  North and the beast of Rev.13

  Little Horn Daniel 8:25 “Against the Prince of princes he will
  stand up”
  King of North Daniel 11:36 “Against the God of gods he will
  speak marvelous things.
  Wild Beast Rev. 13:6 “And it opened its mouth in
  blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and
  residence.

  Little Horn Daniel 8:24 “And in a wonderful way he will
  cause ruin and he will certainly prove successful and do
  effectively. And he will certainly bring mighty ones to ruin.”
  King of North Dan. 11:39 “And he will act effectively against
  the most fortified strongholds”
  Wild Beast Rev. 13:4 “Who is like the wild beast and who
  can do battle with it?”

  Little Horn Dan. 8:11 “and from him the CONSTANT
  FEATURE was taken away and the established place of his
  sanctuary was thrown down... and it kept throwing truth to the
  earth, and it acted and had success.”
  King of the North Daniel 11:36 “and he will certainly prove
  successful until the DENUNCIATION will have come to a
  finish.
  Wild Beast Rev.13:7 “And there was granted it to wage war
  with the holy ones... And all those who dwell on the earth will
  worship it.”

  The little horn parallels the King of the North - NOT the King
  of the South. Therefore the Watchtower is erroneously
  assuming that the King of the South isn’t destroyed by the
  King of the North. The King of the South is off the scene by
  the time the King of the North is destroyed without hand.

  This re-orientation presents further problems for JW
  interpretation. If the King of the North is the Wild Beast in
  Revelation then where is the King of the South in Revelation?
  What is Babylon the Great? Could it be that the great Harlot
  that keeps the worlds economy going due to her craving of
  luxury and that has hegemony over the Kings of the Earth is
  the King of the South/USA? If so God’s people are told to get
  out of her. If that is the case why would Jehovah get them
  involved in a 4 year intensive construction project that would
  take YEARS of use to justify the huge investment in man-
  power and money.

  Maybe they are building their own Magic Kingdom that will
  survive while everything else around them crumbles.
• 

  smiddy

  The former U.S.S.R. ...United Soviet Socialist Republic, is definetly not the same as Russia today. The Watchtower publications claimed the U.S.S.R. was the king of the north , that union doesnt exist today , they cannot now claim russia alone , is the king of the north.

  smiddy
• 

  nonjwspouse

  It's interesting how many younger people don't understand the difference between the USSR and Russia. History once again is proven to be poorly taught in many of our schools.
• 

  scotoma

  nonjwspouse,

  What are the significant differences between Russia and the Soviet Union besides the fact that the Soviet Union no longer exists.
• 

  Bungi Bill

  In 1981 the story remained the same: Watchtower July 15 Pages 5-7

  The Power Struggle-What Outcome?

  There can be no doubt that the modern-day "king of the north" is the Communist bloc, headed by
  the Soviet Union.

  There, to start with is a fallacious statement uttered by Crazy Fred.

  The "Communist block" was NOT "headed by the Soviet Union":

  - Yugoslav communism always was entirely independent of the Soviet Union.

  - The Chinese communists received little help from the Soviet Union during their struggle against the Chinese Nationalists. Mao definitely did not take orders from Stalin at any time, and by the early 1960s, had completely fallen out with the USSR (with Chinese and Soviet troops even exchanging fire across their common border in 1969).

  - Likewise, the communists in Vietnam very much did their own thing, with little regard to taking any orders from either China or the USSR . They accepted whatever aid (in the form of supplies) that the other communist countries would give them, but that was all. Henry Kissinger, also, suffered from Fred Franz's delusions about Soviet "leadership" - thinking that by making friends with China and the USSR ("detente"), he could get these powers to influence North Vietnam into making a favorable peace deal with the USA.

  If Mad Freddie Franz got off to a fallacious start with this fairy tale about the Kings of the North and South, no wonder the rest of it proved to be a crock!

  Bill.
• 

  kaik

  Russia is far from superpower of the old USSR. When I lived under communism, it was officially published in a communist press in the mid 1980's that USSR is nothing more than 3rd world country with nuclear weapons. Back then it was considered less developed than Brazil. One major confrontation with the West and Russian economy will collapse. People fail to see that Russians were beaten up at Crimean War of 1856, Russo-Japan War in 1905, and lost WWI when Germany overrun eastern front line. USSR could not take over Finland and lost in Afghanistan. Russia/USSR/Russia is far from invincible power.
• 

  NewYork44M

  If I was still a jw, I would be peeing my pants in excitement about the current events. Considering what is happening is Russia has to be pure gold to oldtimers who actually understood the retoric related to the KON and the "soviet union."

  May be they were right after all....naw, don't think so.
• 

  kaik

  For modern Protestant churches in the West, Russia with its Orthodox christianity and communist past was always vilified and looked upon suspicion. It was always good escape goat as a threat to their faith. In the renaissance era, the Holy Roman Empire with its role as a protector of papacy was looked the same way. Some Protestant churches believed that the king of the North was Hapsburg imperial domain. As countries changes and disappear in history a new countries will become a scarecrow.
• 

  scotoma

  What is amazing about this current confrontation is the fact that Europe and the USA have no interest in engaging Russian troops.

  They threaten to mess with Russia's money and that's the extent of it.

  There really isn't a military option to stop Russia from doing what it wants in Ukraine.

  Those who like to talk about how weak Russia is forget that they have a couple thousand nuclear weapons, quite a few of which just need a few keystrokes and they target any military or civilian target they choose.

  Rev. 13:3,4 "And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death (Dissolution of the Soviet Union) BUT... its death-stroke got healed and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: "Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?"

  APPARENTLY the USA and the EU aren't able to do battle with it.