Apostate NT Canon

by Pterist 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Phizzy

  " Therefore, how much more of the gospels and the Pauline letters, among other writings, have been corrupted, or written deceptively to suit a certain agenda? Until original manuscripts are found - if ever - we will never be entirely sure. "

  Too true Eden 1 ! hence it is indefensible for the WT to base their murderous blood policy on a few verses that have no provenance.

  If the WT accept the letters of "John" , probably the latest of the canonical works tobe written, then presumably the "Apostasy" did not start till after their writing.

  In which case, why do they not accept the Didache , thought to be earlier ?

  Our respected researcher Poster Doug Mason has an excellent article he has written on this very subject, why the WT accept the church's Canon, there is a link here on JWN, it is full of fascinating stuff, worth a search.
• 

  fastJehu

  @ Pterist "... just copies of copies of copies of many documents from that period."

  I watched this video from Professor Bart Dr. Ehrmann on youtube:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE

  I found this link in another thread here in the forum. For me it was very enlightening.

  He explained:
  - " just copies of copies of copies of copies of copies..." and
  - why the scribes changed there copy and
  - why every copy was different from the copy before and
  - why in all copies are more differences as words in the bible and
  - why he tells his students, to read the gospels horizontally and not only vertically and a lot more.
• 

  Phizzy

  Bart's books are worth a read, Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrrupted I found on-line as free downloads.

  I forgot to say,Good Thread Pterist, this information needs to be constantly aired for newer members or readers here. Good Thread Title too !

  It draws attention to the weird fact that according to their own version of history Jehovah's Witnesses use an Apostate Bible !

  Would Jehovah use Apostates to choose the Holy texts he wished us to learn of him by ?
• 

  Laika

  And those same apostates removed Jehovah's name from the NT, but didn't change any of the other parts of the bible. Makes sense.
• 

  Band on the Run

  It doesn't bother me that the existing manuscripts are older. Changes don't bother me. God, Holy Spirit never wrote a Bible book. Authors spinned existing narratives and Jesus sayings to make their theological points to specific audiences. I thought God wrote scripture, using men as a xxxxxx(automatic writer) when I was in the Witnesses.

  Paul's letters, his problems with the Jerusalem group, provide ample evidence that "apostasy" occurred quickly. The gospels show the apostles arguing with each other. This reassures me for they were fully human, not bland puppets the way many churches teach. I am certain there were abrasive personalities. All I see is how humans combined with historical, social, and economic events shaped the Christian tradition.

  I researched the Historical Jesus in college. When I selected the topic I had no idea what it meant. Scholars try to analyze gospels and 1st century history to see what the actual Jesus may have taught and believed. The major topic is whether he had Messianic notions which is debatable. Nothing is certain. The Church Fathers knew the four gospels were contradictory. Nevertheless, they felt a whole approach was better than a universal gospel. I don't believe what we call fraud was intended by these writers. They did have very different notions about truth. I believe Jesus said certain sayings because the Gnostic and other noncanonical gospels quote or paraphrase the same sayings as in the canonical gospels. It is eerie to read the Gnostics. It proves that the sayings have elastic meanings. Ancient cultures could remember things more accurately than we can b/c we rely on a written record.

  The Great Apostacy was not great. Different regions of the world have different emphasis on the apostles. Paul is the Western giant. I am curious as to what Eastern Orthodox religions believe. Middle Eastern and ancient Indian churches have different traditions. The Witnesses talk about a uniformity that never existed. Does anyone believe the apostles never had disputes? Their account involves magic. Suddenly, Holy Spirit, which is not the Holy Spirit in the Bible, ddisappears and the church is demonized until the Witnesses appear. The sad part is that until I studied history in college I believed the Witness account. My JW uncle's voice would tremble when he mentioned Constantine. He did not know anything about Constantine. If I were a persecuted Christian, I would find Constantine's conversion nifty.
• 

  Pterist

  Thanks to all for the feed back.

  Eden says **Therefore, how much more of the gospels and the Pauline letters, among other writings, have been corrupted, or written deceptively to suit a certain agenda? Until original manuscripts are found - if ever - we will never be entirely sure.*****

  i agree, all the authors of the 4 gospels have an ideology and/bias, and use writing styles of their day called "instruments" like how Homer was written.

  However, the WBTS have adopted and adapted these very same 27 books, same order, and same assumed authors (when there was not one). So they are shooting themselves in the foot don't you think ?

  --

  fastjehu says ***watched this video from Professor Bart Dr. Ehrmann on youtube***

  yes, as part of a study I'm doing on Bible Canon, it was suggested to watch these videos.Very interesting. One rebuttal that comes to mind is "omission" is not necessarily "contradiction" in the synoptic gospels, however, there are some :)

  ---

  Band on the run...interesting ...thank you

  ---

  laika say ***And those same apostates removed Jehovah's name from the NT, but didn't change any of the other parts of the bible. Makes sense.****

  So why accept the 27 Books if they are from apostates ? That's the issue ! You are told not to read apostate literature right ? they might be lying :)

  Thanks all ;)
• 

  Pterist

  Phizzy says ****the weird fact that according to their own version of history Jehovah's Witnesses use an Apostate Bible !****

  LMAO ...yup! go figure ,

  Some rebuttals I'm getting from JWs on another forum, ( besides the Ad Hominems attacks LOL ,) is that the July Watchtower 15th 2013, did NOT say ALL these Christians were apostate. So once again, we are witnessing the JW apologists having to defend the writers at bethel, approved by the big 7 ,God's only channel !