Suffering: the result of Adamic sin?

confused

I am currently having a study with a pioneer couple to try to reactivate me and get me back into the congregation. They have asked me to really think about the provision of the ransom sacrifice. In doing so I have gone back to basics and have already hit a few questions I am thinking of raising. I know I tend to think a little off the wall so would be interested in your ideas before looking very silly in my next study :)

So, Satan was the instigator of sin not Adam but Satan was not sentenced to sickness and suffering. I realise he doesn't have a physical body so can not expirience physical pain but that raises the question of why humans need to suffer pain? We tell people that Jehovah doesn't cause suffering but making a wrong moral decision (rebellion against Jehovah ) could only lead to physical decay if that is what God chose, hence is he not in fact the cause of human suffering?

Taking that a separate further, what about animals? If they are not affected by the rebellion why do they suffer? I can accept it was never God's plan for them to live forever but why do they go through so much pain and sickness? Is this part of the perfect creation? If so then maybe physical suffering isn't so appalling to God?

Of course most of you don't believe in any of this stuff anymore but if you will houmour me I am interested in what sort of response I will get if I ask this question?

Thanks

confused

stillin

All good questions, confused. The animal suffering one always gets me. You are expected to put some questions aside while you work out the "more important ones."

The Bible says that Eve was deceived. Pretty harsh punishment, then, isn't it? Sorry, I don't remember where it says that. One of the Corinthians, I think.

the thing is, it's all contrived. It's a constructed "basket" into which you put all of your eggs. Your questions are good ones, and maybe we will know more for sure somehow, in the future.

Here's one. God preserved His word, the Bible, and protected it for mankind through the centuries. Yet people actually HAVE changed it some through the years. And there are other religions which believe with all their hearts that they are following God's word. It seems like God would somehow protect these good people from being deceived and then destroyed, after a lifetime of suffering.

Splash

When A&E sinned, what did God do to their bodies so that they would no longer live forever.
What did God change in their DNA to make them susceptible to illness and death?

It seems to me that if God had not interfered with them, the act of eating the fruit was not in itself the cause of their subsequent demise, rather God must have changed them as a punishment.

And I like your point about Satan. Even if his spiritual body cannot suffer illness, why does he have to eventually be destroyed.
If Gods law dictates that sin = death, why has he not yet died?

freemindfade

I remember reading about sin somewhere in the insight book I believe. It said original sin was not eating the fruit. It wasn't Adam and eve even. It started in heaven With Satan.

Also yes. If someone tricked you even if you acted presumptuousely seems harsh to banish billions for thousands of years to pain and suffering. Think about it. If satan originated sin, he wasn't deceived by anyone but himself, eve was influenced by an external force ie deceived. But isnt the ransom great thought

And why so long? So man can try every form of ruling himself? thats couldn't have been done in 100 years? 500 years?

It all makes my head hurt.

prologos

There is a current item on the science section of the news that the stick (pain & suffering} is more effective than the carrot (reward) to teach. Pain is nothing more than the tool in creation to minimise injury, prolong life, get a chance at procreation. The ability to feel pain is the hallmark of the successful. It is not the result of sin, silly.

Ruby456

humans attribute intentions to forces - Adam and Eve simply felt the force of desire and enjoyment but as always realised that they must learn to regulate their desires and enjoyments so that they can be expressed for the benefit of those whom they must share the earth with and for themselves.

Satan can simply be seen as a very strong force and one that is difficult to control. Christianity gives humans a way out of the guilt they feel when they see the suffering they make for themselves and for others when they are overwhelmed with the enjoyment on the one hand and the abject guilt they may feel if they have caused suffering by their actions. I think it works this way amongst JWs too if the guilty one can get group validation for himself and be reborn as it were. But if this does not happen then the guilty one may find himself in a maelstorm of bad feelings.

The story of satan is just a way of collectively getting to grips with the dilemma imo. I guess what I am trying to say is don't take it too seriously if you find yourself beset by fears of satan the devil.

confused: sorry for the digression - I just wanted to allay that awful sense of fear and forboding that people may feel at satan.

Vidiot

Related (rhetorical) question; if humanity grows old and dies as a result of "Adamic Sin", why do animals grow old and die (particularly since it's the exact same biological process - telomerase reduction from cell subdivision)?

defender of truth

Here's an entire thread on the question of animal suffering:

www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/222352/theists-why-does-god-allow-suffering

A good question to ask your 'teachers' is this.. Why did God allow animal suffering before Adam and Eve sinned?

Please read the thread for more informatio, and let us know what your teachers said in response ;)

confused

Thank you. I will read that now

Crazyguy

Yeah it's just like the Noahs flood story, everyone gets killed because some angels came down and had sex with woman, somehow the animals were complicit in this so they too had to die? Another point to bring up is since they don't believe in evolution and there are no scriptures stating Satan has the power to create, then God must be the creator of Ebola, all plagues, all viruses etc.

I would love to see them try to answer these questions.

Suffering: the result of Adamic sin?

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