I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Bob_NC

  I loved reading this. Nicely done. I couldn't have been nice for 3 hours.

  May I suggest two approaches:

  1. Tell Miss K that you want her to ask questions of you. That you don't have any questions for her because this would imply that you think she has the right answers.

  2. A question about Noah's preaching, if you want to ask her. Just how far and wide did Noah preach to people about the ark? There was no transportation in those days. Did Noah travel and preach and build a huge ark without power tools too? Did he preach within a 20 mile radius of the ark? A 50 mile radius? What about people only 200 miles away? Or people in southern Afirca or Asia? They never heard thing about a coming flood.
• 

  Terry

  Let me just say one more thing.

  The beliefs of JW's are like a dense forest.

  If you go out with your axe and hack at one little tree at a time you'll only wear yourself out.

  If you go deep into the soil to the very roots of ALL their beliefs you stand to effect a change.

  What is the most fundamental TRUTH to a JW and how do you get them to address it?

  They are required to be loyal to the FDS because it is the only channel of TRUTH.

  How do you test "truth"? You see if it matches reality.

  Well, does it?

  Stick with the question: HOW did the FDS come up with things that needed to be changed?

  Stick with the question: Where does old light come from?

  Stick with the question: Why demand loyalty to something that changes?
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  Faithful Witness

  I keep going over in my mind, the way they formulated their presentation of the need for an organization. When I told her that we had not finished covering the topic of the slave, and she said let's put it aside for now... I'm not sure I can let her get away with that.

  Their only evidence that the JW's are in charge of giving food at the proper time, was that they are the only ones teaching the truth. So apparently, we would need to prove that there is something they are teaching that is not true, in order to prove they are not teaching the truth (and can not fill the role of the faithful slave).

  Since she seems to have exhausted her evidence for the FDS teaching, I'm considering asking her to explain the other slaves and parables mentioned right after the faithful slave. In Matthew 24:45-51, Jesus talks about his servants. The faithful one is good and feeds people when they need it. The evil one declares that the master is not coming, and starts whipping the other slaves... WHO is that referring to?

  There is the parable of the 10 virgins, followed by the parable of the talents. In this example, 3 different slaves (or servants) are mentioned. Who today, apparently represents these servants? If these are merely parables or examples, then why would the faithful vs. evil slave example be a prophecy?

  Regarding the CHANGES to the truth, they discarded this as evidence of anything other than their obedience.
  Miss W: "There IS a scripture that tells us the light will get brighter in the time of the end." (A scripture? I really hate cherry-picking verses... especially if you're basing an entire religion on it, and then punishing anyone who will not comply and shift their entire belief at your whim).

  I told her how my mother was confused by the changes made last fall. Miss K said, "It would be better if they didn't go back and forth in the articles, talking about what we previously thought to be true, and then explaining why we have new understanding and are changing what we believe to be true. It would be much clearer, if they just told us what we know NOW to be true, and not confuse people by explaining why we are making changes. Especially for new ones, it is hard to follow, when the information is presented in the way they did." This comment was very close to what my brother in law said to me, when I was asking him about that article in July Watchtower 2013.

  I asked my sister (back in the fall), what she thought of the changes. She looked blankly at me for about 20 seconds before saying, "It made sense?" (wow)

  Then my brother in law said, "I wish they wouldn't spend so much time telling us what they used to believe. Just tell us what we believe today, and let's move forward." (WOW again).

  The changes and false prophecies are really the reason that we did not continue our bible study, and why we decided to stop lying to the people at the KH. We could not attend meetings and pretend we were going to believe them anymore.
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  Faithful Witness

  I should mention that she keeps trying to bait me into apostate discussions. She made a statement about how "a lot of people will say JW's keep changing their beliefs and what they believe is the truth. I'm sure you've heard people say that."

  I said, "Yes, I have heard that before."

  "You've probably heard that A LOT!!" getting a little excited.

  "Not a LOT. Most of the world is not talking about JW's..." I replied.

  Miss K: "Well, I HAVE heard it many times from people."

  Me: "You're talking to a lot more people about JW's than I am!"

  I am going to resist bringing in a lot of outside information about the society. I have already been provoked into making comments and revealing that I have more information than her normal bible student. I am ready for her, if she warns me again about listening to gossip or reports about the JW's.

  She also claimed that even when people present her with "supposed" statements from old WT magazines, they all turn out to be misquotes, or quotes that were published in the WT from others. I was interested, because it sounded like she had actually taken the quotes and researched them herself. I did not take the bait and follow her down the rabbit trail. I kept saying, "I don't want to change the subject..."

  She was relentless, and she really does have a very bad habit of interrupting and talking over me. I did not manage to complete a single thought, before one of them cut me off.

  Our next meeting should be interesting, as I am going to really try to get them to let me talk. Are you here to make a speech, or do you really want to hear my questions?
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  Band on the Run

  If they want to dress up and pretend they have any Bible knowledge, they should be paying you so they can perform. Jumping around the Bible is no way to study the Bible. It is so typical that your questions can't be addressed, even acknowledged, and that you can only read a part of a scripture. Oh, to think I once wanted to believe. It is more accurate to say that I wanted to be loved as a child. Most Christians can wipe them out from a few Sunday school sessions. Also, most people today aren't wrapped up in the Bible. I don't know a single person who believes God wrote it or even directed it be written.

  I would start presenting with bills for payment. You are feeding their fantasies. I could not sit with such a group for two minutes. Don't you feel diminished as a person by their arrogantly assuming they can teach you. You should be teaching them. More good people are ushered into the Witnesses b/c they don't want to be rude to a Witness. Heck, my Jewish gf was inappropriately invited to an evangelical Christian church. Guess who showed up even to she was upset?
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  leaving_quietly

  How about whether Christ was enthroned in 1914 as the next topic. There are two parts to this: 1914 (plenty of info on this forum) and Christ enthroned in that specific year. Ask them to open their JW Library app on their phone, look up Hebrews 5:9, click on the verse, go to the Reference Bible, and look at the footnote on the word "perfect". It's IN THEIR BIBLE!!!! Just one of several verses that show that Christ was enthroned before 1914.

  Another shocker would be w78 3/1 pars. 15-25. Here's paragraphs 15 and 16, just for your viewing pleasure:

  15 When was God’s Son made a King-Priest like Melchizedek? This was 40 days after his resurrection from the dead, when he ascended to heaven. Then he appeared in the presence of God with the value of his perfect human sacrifice in behalf of the redeemed humans who were to become his subjects in the future.
  16 Here, at this point, some persons might experience a little confusion of thought and say, ‘Why, I have understood that Jesus Christ has been reigning in heaven only since the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. So how could it be that he has been reigning in heaven since the year of his ascension to heaven, the year 33 C.E.? (Acts 1:1-11; 2:22-36; Heb. 9:24; 10:12, 13) In what way has he been King all the time since, and over whom has he been reigning?’
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  clarity

  Wow FW ......well done & wonderfully written!

  *

  There is no greater test than 2 elderettes for 3 hours! :-)

  *

  Keep their noses right in that subject ...after all they do want to

  convert you .......don't they.

  clarity
• 

  blondie

  Pardon me if someone above mentioned this but I remember when I was a jw I had this thought corrected for me:

  After talking about Paul and then reading the last passage of Matthew and Revelation (don't add to this book, don't take away from this book), she came to the conclusion that since all the churches are teaching things that are NOT in the bible, they are not teaching the truth.

  1) Add to the Bible (John wrote his letters after Revelation) Revelation is not the last book written in the Bible even by WTS teaching.

  2) Or add to Revelation.

  (Revelation 22:18, 19) 18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

  Good try...victim of the WTS/jw dance around the issue

  Or Dance around the Truth

  I used to dance that way until a young couple invited me to prove that the bible said Michael and Jesus were the same person. My personal research using the bible itself alone made be realize the bible said nothing, the WTS made suppositions and inferences but there was no bible support. It was the same year another statement in a WT made we start researching the date 1874 and how the WTS had said that Christ's presence began then.

  *** g02 2/8 p. 17 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***

  Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

  *** w84 12/15 p. 27 ‘Michael the Great Prince’—Who Is He? ***

  It is logical to conclude that this was the angel that delivered so many important communications to God’s people

  *** bh p. 219 par. 1 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***

  Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

  *** g02 2/8 p. 17 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***

  While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus
• 

  Crazyguy

  Two things you could use about them changing their bible to meet their doctrine, the one in luke where Jesus is appointing them a kingdom. They use the word covenant in their bible so as to make it seem its the same covenant as the New Covenant, but when you look at every other bible or the greek interlinear the word used is Bestow or Appoint, showing its not a covenant but a promise, so they clearly changed the their bible. Also ask them if the bible is thier final authority or is thier leaders? When they say it the bible read REV.19:1 and ask them where the great crowd it according to the bible, they'll say this is a crowd of angels but you can respond that every time John says anything in revelations about the angels he says there the angles. So read the scripture again and say is the great crowd in heaven or not. This will prove their leaders are the final authority.

  Also if you have time have them read in their bible Rev 5:10 were they say its talking about the 144k ruling over everyone else, but then make them read verse 9. the have them turn over to REv: 7:9 and have them read it. go back and compare the two. It will be clear that the ones talked about here come from every nation language and tongue, the 144K only come from the tribes of israel. These two scriptures clearly show that the 144K are not who are talked about in verse 10.

  just remember the bible when talking to JW's is your best friend.
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  LoisLane looking for Superman

  Wow- za Faithful Witness. I did enjoy that! Your writing skill made me feel I was sitting close by watching this "tennis match" back and forth. Easter marshmellow eggs and Girl Scout cookies. The Girl has a great sense of humor too lol

  This is a conversation, unlike I have ever been "on" before.

  She is really determined to leave her mark on you.

  I think she is counting you as a Bible study and now has lots to talk about when she sees her friends or the CO, plus counting 3 hours, 1 RV and 1 BS.

  I am so glad you have the mental clarity and energy to stand up to her.

  Most normal people just listen politely for a few minutes, take magazines, shut the door, put mags in trash , and think they have done their good deed for the day.

  You are exceptional. and 3 gold stars

  LoisLane