What you see in the Hebrew scriptures is the evolution of Monolatry to Monotheism and then in the Christian's Bible the de-evolution away from absolute Monotheism.
Trinitiarian "proof-text" John 20:28 has some problems for "Trinitarians"
by booker-t 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Ultimate Axiom
There are plenty of texts you could quote to support the idea that Christ was God, and plenty of others to support the idea that he wasn’t. But even if you come down on the side of Christ’s divinity, I still don’t see where you get the Trinity from. Surely a concept so totally alien to the Jewish God would have been explained by Paul somewhere in his letters if that's what he believed. But he doesn’t even mention it in passing, not so much as a whisper. Believe Jesus is God if you like, and tell me the bible supports that idea and I won’t argue with you, but don’t try and tell me that it therefore follows that God is a Trinity.
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John_Mann
In a christian point of view I think the trinitarian doctrine is far superior because:
1) the trinitarian view encompass the unitarian, because it have perfectly the Father-Son relationship. The roles this two persons of Trinity it's not related to their substances. Two adult humans non related to each other can build a relationship as father and son, but it's not implied that the father role is a superior human or adult.
2) Jesus was not exactly the Son God when on earth, because he was a lowered (under the angel status) version of Son God (no man can see God). So is consistent to him speak about the Father God as being superior. In a role relationship a son always take the father as superior, like a pupil and a teacher.
3) There's a unvenial sin regarding the Holy Spirit. Even in doubt, what is more risky? Consider the Holy Spirit as a person or just like an irrational force?
The trinity concept makes the bible less inconsistent. Because it explains all the passages refering a clearly hierarchical relationship between a father and a son and all passages clearly trinitarian, like the Holy Spirit having feelings. Trinitarians have no problems with texts about father-son relationship, but unitarians have a lot of trouble with trinitarian texts.
I do agree with the more consistent view of Trinity, and I'm not a christian anymore.
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Laika
Most likely is that the elder just made the Greek argument up. It's really a simple verse. Thomas did not believe Jesus had rose from the dead. Jesus showed Thomas his wounds and Thomas response 'My lord and my god' was Thomas saying that his doubts had gone and he now believed. It was an affirmation of who Thomas believed Jesus to be, as if he was saying 'it really is you'
The JW elder has told me not one person from the Born-Again/Trinitarian community has been able to dispute this.
I bet he's never raised that with a real biblical Greek scholar.
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Darth Rutherford
I don't even pretend to be a scholar with Greek -so please pardon my ignorance. I can't help but wonder if the words at John 20:28 are more simpler than we might think. The Greek word used for 'God' is theos. Theos can certainly mean the Almighty, but it also applies to anyone considered as a god or goddess -a general word for anyone perceived as a deity. Jesus is a god (theos), but that word alone doesn't necessarily mean he is or isn't the Almighty, does it?
2 Cor 4:4 speaks of the god (theos) of this world. That's not referring to the Almighty, but it is a god nonetheless. So, Thomas called Jesus his god. I may not necessarily believe the trinity, but I'm comfortable with Jesus being called a god. According to the account, Jesus just proved to Thomas that he came back from the dead -that would qualify as having godlike abilities, wouldn't it?
Just a thought...
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Band on the Run
A former seminary at Boston University told me she did a research paper concerning uses of the word "LORD" in the Bible. In most instances, "Lord" is a lord in the European sense of an aristocrat. Lord Olivier. God is very different.
Somehow if a unitarian or trinitarian viewpoint were truly essential, I believe Jesus or Paul would have addressed it. Jesus is cagey about any Christology. His trial is a great example. Most people think his repartee with Pilate is brilliant. I don't. Talk that way to an American judge now and there will be consequences. Paul, the main theologian of Christianity, wrote his letters. Writing allows you to clarify your ideas. He could write so movingly about other subjects.
When Stephen is stoned to death at the temple, Greek vs. Jewish notions are already active. Stephen and everyone else mentioned in the account in Acts had Greek names. No one with a Hebrew or Aramaic name is mentioned. I think that Jesus being God was a Greek idea.
When I read history or historical fiction, I read about how much of Europe was at war over Christology. It was more a political/economic fight than a theological one.
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booker-t
Magnum I liked the way you explained it because I was totally confused about the vocative/nomative issue. I am so glad you are honest and admit No one was being addressed Jesus or Jehovah because most trinitarians do everything they can to cram the Trinity doctrine down your throats and omit telling you everything. Case in point some born agains still quote 1 John 5:7 even after many scholars have said this verse is "spurious" and should not be included in the bible. But to prove the trinity they will omit informing people of this. And John-Mann you mention the Holy Spirit having "feelings" to show the Holy Spirit is a person. Time and time again it has been shown that "personification" is rampant in the Bible. Or we to believe that the "wind" is a person because Jesus is said to "rebuke" the wind. The wind has a "will" the bible says but only a person can have a will. So the wind is a person. Also, David "Sinned" against heaven the bible tells us. But if I remember my David and Bathsheba story correct David sinned against Jehovah. So "Heaven" is a person of the trinity doctrine now. The list goes on and on. James tells us not to "lie" to the truth. According to trinitarians only a person can be "lied" to so "truth" is a person. There is a whole list of "personal" qualities for "love" in the book of Corinthians. Love is "patient". Only a person can show patience. So please John-Mann that tired old argument for the Holy Spirit needs to be updated.
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Cold Steel
Booker-T: At John 20:28 it Thomas says (Mou Kurious) so he explained to me Thomas may have been talking to Jesus but he was directing it to Jehovah God.
Yes, but what if Jesus is Jehovah-God? This is not to say he was the Father (El/Elyon/Elohim), but that Jehovah, or Yahweh, is the Son.
For example, God (El) walked and talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden. When he and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, the Father no longer could speak to man directly, but used an intercesor. This intercessor was Yahweh, who was born into mortality as Jesus Christ. It was this intercessor who spoke to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and all the other prophets.
Wasn't it Jesus Christ who was the Creator? Wasn't it also Jehovah who was the Creator?
Didn't Paul state: "[God, the Father] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Heb. 1:2) And "God, who created all things by Jesus Christ...." (Eph. 3:9) Thus, Jesus created "all things" because of his position as heir. But Isaiah writes: "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein." (Isa. 42:5) And, we read, "For by [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (Colossians 1:16-17)
And again, Isaiah: "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." (43:15)
Additionally, the prophet Micah (Micah 7:9) writes: "I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness." Here, Yahweh is described as both our intercessor (who pleads our cause), and our judge (executes judgment). In the New Testament it is Jesus who pleads our cause, for John writes: "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) And, "The Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Notice the reference to Jesus Christ "the righteous" and Yahweh's "righteousness." Then, in Psalms 110:1-2, which is the kicker: "The LORD saith unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Who is David's Lord? It is Yahweh. Here, the Father is speaking to David's Lord, Jehovah. Thus, the Father is not Jehovah, but Jehovah is the Son, our advocate, our creator and our judge.
This clearly is not Michael we're discussing.
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Rattigan350
Why does anyone even care what Thomas said? Who is he to which his sayings matter?
He was an apostle of Jesus. - yeah.
But what gives people the idea that fact would make him knowledgeable about the issue of who Jesus was and God was? And what makes him the EF Hutton of religion, where everyone pays attention to what he says? He was just a man.
And the same thing with Paul.
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ablebodiedman
Trinitarians love using this scripture to prove that Jesus Christ must be the Almighty God because all things were created by Jesus Christ ............ right?:
Isaiah 44:24
This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
Notice that this scripture is asked as a question.
So what is the answer?
Genesis 1:26
And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth."
That is kind of frustrating for Trinitarians who use this scripture to prove the Trinity isn't it?
So why would Isaiah write such a thing?
Just keep reading for the answer:
Isaiah 44:25
[I am] frustrating the signs of the empty talkers, and [I am] the One that makes diviners themselves act crazily; the One turning wise men backwards, and the One that turns even their knowledge into foolishness;
The bible is amazing!
abe