Something to pay attention to, if you go to the Memorial...

by undercover 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • undercover
    undercover

    I'm cutting and pasting from one of my own posts from some timem ago. If you're having to go to this thing tonight, pay attention to how the speaker explains the timing of events at the Passover meal, and then compare that to what the Bible actually says...

    An oldie, but one of my better goodies, I think...

    Yes, it's time for that annual ritual...no, no...not the ritual of nibbling on crackers and sipping cheap wine, but the ritual of comparing WT teachings of how Jesus instituted the Memorial versus what the Bible actually says.

    Current WT theology.... as cut and pasted from their own website:

    http://watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm (old link, may be dead. I didn't check it)

    Jesus knows that one of these men—Judas Iscariot—has already arranged to betray him to the religious leaders. Understandably, he becomes very distressed. "One of you will betray me," he reveals. The apostles are highly grieved at this. After celebrating the Passover, Jesus tells Judas: "What you are doing get done more quickly."
    Once Judas has left, Jesus introduces a meal to commemorate his impending death. He takes a loaf of the unleavened bread, expresses thanks in prayer, breaks it, and instructs the 11 to partake. "This means my body," he says, "which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." He then takes a cup of red wine. After saying a blessing, he passes the cup to them, telling them to drink out of it. Jesus adds: "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."

    This is what I was taught and believed without question for all my life, up until I started openly questioning anyway. Once I started questioning WT doctrine I started reading the Bible independant of WT publications.

    Let's compare that WT teaching with what the Bible actually says:

    Matthew chapter 26:

    20 When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU , One of YOU will betray me.” 22 Being very much grieved at this, they commenced each and every one to say to him: “Lord, it is not I, is it?” 23 In reply he said: “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born.” 25 By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].”

    26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “T AKE , eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU ; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I tell YOU , I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.” 30 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

    Mark chapter 14:

    17 After evening had fallen he came with the twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: “Truly I say to YOU , One of YOU , who is eating with me, will betray me.” 19 They started to be grieved and to say to him one by one: “It is not I, is it?” 20 He said to them: “It is one of the twelve, who is dipping with me into the common bowl. 21 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.”

    22 And as they continued eating, he took a loaf, said a blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said: “Take it, this means my body.” 23 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: “This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many. 25 Truly I say to YOU , I shall by no means drink anymore of the product of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” 26 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

    Luke chapter 22:

    14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer;16 for I tell YOU , I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18 for I tell YOU , From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.”

    19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

    21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!” 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.

    John chapter 13

    21 After saying these things, Jesus became troubled in spirit, and he bore witness and said: “Most truly I say to YOU , One of YOU will betray me.” 22 The disciples began to look at one another, being at a loss as to which one he was saying [it] about. 23 There was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, and Jesus loved him. 24 Therefore Simon Peter nodded to this one and said to him: “Tell who it is about whom he is saying [it].” 25 So the latter leaned back upon the breast of Jesus and said to him: “Lord, who is it?” 26Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car´i·ot. 27And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.” 28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: “Buy what things we need for the festival,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night.

    Matthew's account and Mark's account are very similar, which is probably because there were copied from the same source material. In any event neither mention anything about Judas leaving either before, during or after the meal...singular meal, as we will discuss in a bit.

    John's account is the only one that records that Judas left. But John's account does not record the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine as representing Christ's body, so there is nothing there to show Judas leaving before Jesus offered the bread and wine.

    Luke's account not only doesn't record the departure of Judas, it actually places him there during the new procedure.

    The WT argues (among others) that Luke may not have been written in chronological order. But that argument doesn't hold up for WT apologists. Is the Bible the inerrent Word of God or isn't it? Is the Bible the final authority on doctrine? These are claims made by the WT/JWs. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim to believe the Bible as final say and being inerrent and then say, "oh well, that section...it's not quite right. This is the way it happened, we think..."

    Another WT teaching is that the Memorial meal is a separate and distinct meal put in place after the Passover (Seder) meal is finished. But again, that's not what the Bible says. The accounts consistently record the event happening as they were eating whatever meal, assuming it was the Passover or Seder meal for this argument. "As they continued eating..." That means they were still in one of the courses of the meal. This special meal isn't a meat and two veggies with a glass of wine, but was several courses with four servings of wine. There is no mention of Jesus instituting this new special meal. It was during some point in the meal already in progress that Jesus carried out this new wrinkle.

    Of course, all of this doesn't take into account that there are other discrepencies among the accounts themselves as to when the meal actually took place and that some parts of the accounts may not be authentic.

    But just a quick read of the Gospels shows that the WT teaching of the Last Supper is twisted from scripture. And it has to be in order to make their Memorial as important as they claim it is. For only the remnant of Christ's brothers, the 144,000 are allowed to partake. If it was obvious that Judas partook, it robs some, if not all, the significance of the event and the importance of the vow of those who do partake. For if Jesus knew that Judas was his betrayer and still allowed him to stay during this event, then it's not a new institution being set in place for just those in the new covenant, it's just another parable and illustration used to try to teach his followers something. Rob the event of the importance of the occasion and it loses it's place today as a special and significant occasion that has to be observed, thus stripping the WT of some of its credibility as spokesmen for this special group of people.

  • Laika
    Laika

    I was there this evening and the speaker never mentioned Judas or the date, so it might not be in this year's outline. The chairman however offered the prayer through our mediator Jesus, but that's probably another topic.

    Thanks for sharing though, still valuable. :)

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    Luke is the only book that's mentions Judas being there or not like you stated and how the gb get around this is earlier in Luke ,Luke gets something wrong pertaning to the execution of john the baptist. So since Luke was wrong on his time line there then he must be wrong about Judas being at the meal.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Hey Laika!..

    .

    When you made your post ..

    It was only 2:17pm here on the west coast in Canada..

    What time was it,when you went to your memorial?..

    ....................................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif ...OUTLAW

  • prologos
    prologos

    and during the times of the apostles, the evening was called the PASSOVER not the 'Memorial', or 'The Lord's evening meal', 'last supper'.

  • clarity
    clarity

    Undercover hi ....nice to see you tonight.

    I never really 'got' these three points before....

    *

    .."Gospels shows that the WT teaching of the Last Supper is twisted from scripture. And it has to be in order to make their Memorial as important as they claim it is. For only the remnant of Christ's brothers, the 144,000 are allowed to partake. If it was obvious that Judas partook, it robs some, if not all, the significance of the event and the importance of the vow of those who do partake. For if Jesus knew that Judas was his betrayer and still allowed him to stay during this event, then it's not a new institution being set in place for just those in the new covenant, it's just another parable and illustration used to try to teach his followers something. Rob the event of the importance of the occasion and it loses it's place today as a special and significant occasion that has to be observed, thus stripping the WT of some of its credibility as spokesmen for this special group of people."

    *

    Thanks for posting this, I don't put much stock in the bible now,

    but others & my family do, so I really appreciate your view!

    clarity

  • InChristAlone
    InChristAlone

    Marked

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    very good referances

  • pronomono
    pronomono

    Whoa, whoa, whoa..... CrazyGuy, the GB said that Luke got something wrong about John the Baptist's execution? They admitted that there was an error in the holy, inspired scriptures? I've got to see this. Can you provide a reference?

  • Laika
    Laika

    Hi outlaw,

    I'm in England which is 9 hours ahead of you. :)

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