Bible Authority - A Cop-Out?

by Joe Grundy 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Mentions in other threads 'inspired' me to consider this point.

    This is a quote from Paul's JWFacts site about Christadelphians (not a million miles removed from JWs):

    "The Bible is God's word and the only message from him. It is without error, except for copying and translation errors."

    That opens a can of worms, doesn't it?

    Another recent thread prompted me to watch the Bart Ehrman youtube lecture 'Misquoting Jesus' on copying and translating errors - fascinating - and led me to the (not original) thought that once one allows for 'copying and translation errors' combined with deciding which bits were literal and wich allegorical (144,000 anybody?) - let alone later 'corrective interpolations' - one can just about make the Bible say anything one wants.

    I was brought up in the Plymouth Brethren where there are no clergy but every 'brother' (keep quiet, sisters!) is expected to be his own student and unsurprisingly their history is characterised (as so many cults/sects of the time) by doctrinal splits. (JWs avoided this by rigid centralised authority a la Rutherford). Well-meaning in the most part but hopelessly under-educated in the most important part of their lives (religion) and prepared to make other peoples' lives a misery because of their own unbending beliefs.

    And, of course, to question is to put oneself beyond the pale.

    Sad, in so many ways.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    It is without error, except for copying and translation errors.

    Then it's not without error.

    What a silly statement.......broken circular reasoning.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL, its all true- the Bible can be played like a fiddle. But its not just copying and translation errors... it contains outright contradictions. This is from Joachim Kahl's 1968 book 'The Misery of Christianity':

    From the abundance of contradictions contained in the New Testament and conveniently brought together by Kasemann and Herbert Braun in their articles on the New Testament canon, I will select three examples.
    The gospels of Matthew and Luke state that Jesus was born of a virgin (Matt 1:18 and Luke 1:26 ff.). According to Paul (Phil. 2:6 ff.) and John (1:1 ff.), however, he was a pre-existent celestial being who came down to earth, assumed a human form, and, after performing his work of salvation, returned to God in the eternal world. Both views are mutually exclusive. In the case of the first, Jesus first became the son of God at his birth, after having been begotten in a miraculous fashion by the Holy Spirit. In the second case, he had already been living as the son of God with the Father since eternity. This, however, is not all - the gospel according to Mark presents us with a third view. Jesus was not born of a virgin and did not have any existence before entering his human body, according to Mark, but was initiated as the son of God during his life on earth, namely when he was baptized by John (Mark 1:9 ff.). There are also glimpses of even a fourth form of Christology in the New Testament, although this is only apparent in a few ancient fragments. Thus Paul quotes a traditional formula (in Rom. 1:3 f.) which indicates that, in the earliest Christian community, Jesus' messianic state dated from his resurrection.

    The eschatological teaching of the gospel and the Apocalypse of John cannot be reconciled in any way. In the gospel, the dramatic eschatology of the Jewish apocalyptic vision is, in accordance with the Gnostic pattern, completely abandoned and judgement and salvation are presented as taking place in the present (John v, 24 f.). The soul of the believer is seen as rising up into the glory of heaven immediately after death (xii, 32; xiv, 2 f.; xvii, 24). The Apocalypse, on the other hand, indulges in phantasmagoria of a catastrophe at the end of time, imagined on a massive scale and accompanied by fearful punishments. Satanic locusts are to torment man, for example (Apoc. ix, 3 ff.).
    There will be a battle between Michael the Archangel and the great dragon in heaven (xii, 7 ff.). Bloody massacres will take place in which Christ, seated on a white horse, will kill the unbelievers, whose bodies will be devoured by birds (xix, I I ff.). This wholesale slaughter will be followed by a peace lasting for a thousand years (xx, I ff.), at the end of which Satan and his angels will be thrown for ever into a lake of fire (xx, 7 ff.). Finally, the Apocalypse presents us with a vision of the descent of the heavenly Jerusalem to earth (xxi, I ff.).

    My third example of irreconcilability between the teaching in two similar New Testament documents was also noted a long time ago by Martin Luther. It is this. There is a gap between Paul's doctrine of justification and that of the letter of James that cannot be bridged. In Rom. iii, 28, Paul taught: `For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law'. In the letter of James, we read: `You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone' (James ii, 24). However ridiculous it may seem, both Paul (Rom. iv, 3) and the unknown author of the letter of James (James ii, 23) appeal, for their totally opposing statements, to the same passage in the Old Testament (Gen. xv, 6): `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'.

    Which partly explains why there are so many different Christian religions...

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    I recently listed to a radio program that was discussing the Dead Sea Scrolls, which apparently dates to something like 1500 years before Christ. They were saying that they were surprised that between that and the Masoretic Text, there is very little difference. As an example, they used Isaiah 53 and said that only one word had changed, and the word that changed was done because of modernizing the meaning of the word. This was from a non-JW source. So, as far as copying errors, it appears there were very little during that gap. At least that was the conclusion of the radio program.

    That doesn't explain the contradictions, such as Solomon having 40000 stables in one verse (1 Kings 4:26) and 4000 in another (2 Chron 9:25). Interestingly, the RNWT "corrects" 1 Kings 4:26 and puts in 4000 but footnotes it, acknowledging that some scripts say 40000. I suspect this was a copy error even prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls that simply got copied over and over and over.

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    The Issue is not the Bible, the Issue is Religions and Organizations forming Creeds, strictly based on their interpretation of The Bible. The Bible was not given to act as a Blue Print, that one should build his life around it, rather it was given as a compass.

    In an earlier thread, we discussed the differences between Hebrew thinking & Greek thinking, - Hebrew is concerned with Doing, and Greek is concerned with Knowing. - Is the Bible so flawed that some one cannot use it even as a simple compass to the Truth.

    This is the Truth :

    Jesus gave his Life for ALL MEN / Love Your Neighbor / Turn the Other Cheek / Practice Humility / Give of Ourselves / Love God

    Jesus had a perfect vocabulary, and anything that he wished to communicate could have been done with absolute clarity and unmistakeable meaning.. With this in view, why would he ever say something like Eat my Flesh & Drink my Blood?

    The bible is a stumbling block, for an individual that is reading it with the goal of bashing someone else over the head with it, or someone that expects it to be perfect because it is "Gods Word".

    2 Thess 2:10-12 "10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    Transhuman - Who cares about all that? Every single holy book that has ever been written, Including the Bible & The Quran - Speak of the Final Day. The Final day is the gift that Jesus life gives to Humans. If we practice Love & Humility now, we gain Everlasting Life (Whereever that May be) If we are Unrighteous now we will have the Final Day to repent.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    leaving_quietly: Many amazing claims of accuracy were made about the Dead Sea scrolls; but the reality is really quite ordinary- here's a sample from Wikipedia:

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of 972 texts from the Hebrew Bible found in the 1940s at Khirbet Qumran on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea from which it derives its name.
    These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE and 70 CE.

    While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around 100 CE.

    objectivetruth: Who cares about all that? LOL- if you have 'faith', or believe in magic then its all OK- but enough contradictions in a book usually renders it worthless: just a collection of meaningless words, and Jesus and the Final Day become fiction too.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    The bible is full of problems just think about the gospels in each story about christ's resurrection there all different. In 1 Mary goes and finds the tomb empty, in another story its several women and in another its women and men. Some see a man others see and angel and others see angels. In Mark the woman are told to go tell the disciples but run away scared and tell know one and in another there told to tell the disciples to go to Galilee and in another they are supposed to go to Jerusalem.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    As Bart Ehrmann and many before him have shown, the Bible has no Provenance. All we have is copies of copies of copies, all of which contain error, redactions strange interpolations etc etc.

    The books we do have were chosen in the 4thCentury by the Roman Church, many writings were rejected at the time, and many may have been lost. Even if we did have autograph copies,they were written long after the event, and written to an agenda.

    To take such a poorly written work of fiction as "Authority" is pure nonsense.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    "Then it's not without error."

    Exactly right, of course - and that's why I was surprised to see this statement from a group/sect/cult that holds the bible in such high esteem. I can only surmise that as in so many similar groups the adherents either don't stop to think about this or if they do think better of raising questions for fear of the consequences.

    I find it fascinating in terms of social anthropology (in an amateur way), most especially in groups where whole lives are determined by strict doctrinal adherence to particular interpretations of unreliable texts. Happens in all religions, of course, not least the myriad of islamic sects.

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