C.T. Russell 's asking of HS in this matter was certainly not of the same quality as today's spirit-guided knowledge and understanding of the GB.
What do you make of it?
"Organized Religion" as per WBTS - Awake! July 2014
by bats in the belfry 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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designs
It plays into the public's persception of communal worship. In our little rural community of 40,000 there are 40 churches, go figure.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Here is why Russell has been relegated to the "Who's Russell?" category:
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"The endeavor to compel all men to think alike on all subjects, culminated in the great apostasy; The union of the early church, based upon the simple gospel and bound only by love, gave place to the bondage of the Church of Rome a slavery of God's children, from the degradation of which multitudes are still weak and suffering" --- Zion's Watch Tower 1893 Sep p.264
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And, it's a huge leap in logic to say that 'do not forsake gathering together' means organized religion. WT seems to conveniently forget that the Bible says "if two or more are gathered in my name, there the Spirit is also". Hardly a foregleam of a systemetized, corporatized, scheduled way of dictating meeting and believing.
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ablebodiedman
What do you make of it?
The end time prophecies in the bible indicate that true Christians would be isolated from their congregations.
The quote from the Awake Magazine above indicates their complete ignorance of this.
Consider how Jesus Christ describes the celebration of the Lords Evening Meal (Memorial) during the "Lords Day" while addressing ALL the congregations:
Revelation 3:19-22
"‘All those for whom I have affection I reprove and discipline. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his[house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’"
So does that sound like a "gathering together" of all the people in the congregations to celebrate the Memorial?
or
Does it sound like specific individuals being isolated out of all those congregations?
Listen carefully to what Jesus Christ is saying to the congregations above!
What do I make of it?
The WTBTS is misleading 8 million people!
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Oubliette
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS: Hebrews 10:5 uses the phrase "not forsaking our meeting together." Those words show that God wants people to gather as an organized group for worship.
No, no, no! "Those words" do NOT "show that God wants people to gather as an organized group for worship." This is NOT "What the Bible says;" this is what the WTBTS says the Bible says.
Let's examine the scriptures and see what they Bible really says:
I recently got an unsolicited lecture from a well-intentioned but nevertheless misguided JW friend. The gist of it was that I needed to go to all the meetings or I would miss out on "everlasting life."
I responded that I do not need to go to meetings to have a relationship with God. The predictable response was, "I could show you a million Watchtowers that say you do!"
I naturally concurred, saying, "I'm sure you could. But can you prove it from the Bible?"
After an awkward silence, my friend predictably went for the JW "go-to" scripture about Meeting Attendance: Hebrews 10:24, 25. I responsed, "Of course. Why don't you read it again and tell me what it actually SAYS, and not what you think it MEANS."
- And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
Of course JWs believe this verse is an injunction to meet at the Kingdom Hall several times a week for their regular indoctrination sessions. But it simply does not say that. According to the rNWT, it DOES say Christians should be "meeting together," but it does not proscribe when, where or how often. (The previous NWT read, "gathering of ourselves together." That is different, no?)
What about the cross-references? What light do they shed on the subject? Let's look:
In the rNWT there are two marginal references next to the phrase "meeting together." They are:
- Deuteronomy 31:12: Gather the people together, the men, the women, the children, and your foreign resident who is within your cities, in order that they may listen and learn about and fear Jehovah your God and take care to carry out all the words of this Law.
- Acts 2:42: And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to associating together, to the taking of meals, and to prayers.
Note: the previous NWT had two more cross references, but they don't help either.
First, although the scripture at Deuteronomy does in fact contain a "command" for all of Israel to "gather together," a quick perusal of the context shows that this was to be done once every seven years! (Deut. 31:9-12). It simply does NOT support the WT's cult practice of multiple weekly meetings. It just doesn't.
What about Acts 2:42? This, of course, is part of the account of the unique events at Pentecost. When a person reads the verses for what they say, without trying to impose on them any pre-existing ideas, a clear picture emerges of a group of people spending time together in a variety of activities. Included in this is the "taking of meals," which as verse 46 points out, this was in different, private homes. These people were excited to spend time together and they did it because they wanted to, not because they felt some sort of obligation. Either, way, it was a unique situation that in no way set a precedent for a religious requirement of multiple meetings every week. And the context most certainly does not suggest that when Christians lived their normal lives that they were "spiritually weak" and subject to death from God for not "going to the meetings." This idea is not in the Bible. It just isn't.
Again, the previous NWT did not say "meeting together," but said "gathering ourselves together." Here is another example of the GB/New World Translation Committee changing the scriptures to try and support their pre-existing beliefs. Why would they do that? One can only speculate. But it is clear they like to have the word "meeting" in there rather than "gathering." A gathering sounds like a party; we all know what a "meeting" is in the mind of a fully-indoctrinated JW.
All of this being said, my friend continued to try and press the idea that I could not have a relationship with God if I didn't "go to all the meetings." I said, "One word: Cornelius."
I then explained that, like Cornelius, I had a relationship with God thirty years ago, before I became a JW. When I was disfellowshipped for several years, I rebuilt my spirituality and my relationship with God brick-by-brick, trowelling the mortar by myself. No one helped me. I did it all by myself. I did NOT need to go to any meetings to have a relationship with God then, and I do not need to go now!
She said, "Are you saying we don't need to go to the meetings?"
Now, not wanting to be branded an apostate, I hedged. "No I did NOT say that. Please do not put words in my mouth or misconstrue what I actually said. I simply said that I do not need to go to meetings to have a relationship with God. No one does. This is what the Bible really teaches."
I then said, "Look, this is obviously upsetting you. Why don't we just drop it for now." And so we did.
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BTW, the two other verses that previously were appeared in the old NWT as references also do not support the WT/JW teaching on mandatory meeting attendance:
- Matthew 18:20 - Jesus: "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst."
You only need 2 or 3 Christians for Jesus to be "present." No specific directions as to time, place, frequency or manner of gathering.(I could have pointed out to my friend that we were fullfilling this scripture right at that very moment, but she was already upset by our discussion and I didn't want to press it any further).
The second scripture which used to appear in the NWT as a reference to Hebrews 10:25 is:
- Acts 20:8 - So there were quite a few lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together.
This is the account in Troas where Paul gave a speech that apparently was so long and so boring that a young man fell asleep and fell out of a window:
- Acts 20:7, 9 - On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal, Paul began addressing them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. ... Seated at the window, a young man named Eu′ty·chus sank into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking, and overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead.
Again, this was a one-off situation, in a private home where everyone was gathered for a meal.
In summary, when we read the Bible for what it actually says, instead of trying to interpret it to support what we think it means, a very different understanding often comes to light. This will be "new light" for many of us, real new light!
BTW, don't forget to incite to love and fine works and also encouraging one another!
And whatever you do, please: no long-winded speeches after dinner!!!
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Island Man
The bible does encourage christians to meet together in an organized way for encouragement and teaching. Just do a careful reading of 1 Corinthians 14 and it should become clear that there were congregation meetings back then and Paul's counself recorded there shows that they were to be done orderly. Hebrews 10:25 has to be understood in the broader context of 1 Corinthians 14 and other texts that speak about various congregations held in different houses.
However, the level of human organization that the bible mandates goes no further than the local congregation arrangement. There is no basis for a global hierarchical organization as the Watchtower would have you beleive. All organizing above the congregation level is done from heaven. What is supposed to unite the different local congregations worldwise is not a top tier human bureaucracy but the teachings of the bible and the action God's spirit to impart the correct understanding of it. When the same spirit conveys the correct understanding to different congregations they are naturally united.
And here's the thing: only those who are truly humble and genuine would be given the correct understanding by holy spirit. So this way, God himself through holy spirit unites true followers worldwide. In the event that an elder in a local congregation apostatizes only that local congregation is at risk because the elder does not exercise control over other congregations. But with the human bureaucratic method all the congregations are at the mercy of the bureau. If the bureau does not have truly humble and genuine men (and this often happens - something about absolute power corrupting absolutely) then holy spirit will not give them the correct understanding and they and all their subordinate congregations are in error. When the bureau apostatizes, all the congregations are in danger of apostasy.
According to the bible, christ is the head of the congregation - not a hubris filled, authoritatarian Governing Body.
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EndofMysteries
Here is how they twist reasoning.....
they quote the scripture about all speaking in agreement, then they say that means each would be in organized religion and not have their own interpretation.
The TRUE untwisted reasoning on those scriptures is that what is taught as doctrine and truth would be so evident and absolute that ALL would in their hearts and minds agree with it and believe it whether taught it or learned alone from bible reading.
Anything that is up for many explanations would be left up to the individual, as the borg calls a 'conscious matter'.
No scriptures back up that a few people set a doctrine and everybody believes it just to be in agreement.
All christian faiths believe Jesus died for their sins, JW's included. That would be one of the 'in agreement' doctrines.
There is much dispute over Jesus in relation to the father, that would be a personal belief.
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EndofMysteries
"Those words show that God wants people to gather as an organized group for worship". They are getting pretty blatant now. That is one doctrine they never want to be flexible on for 'new light', as normally they would say, "Evidently, those words show that God wants people to gather as an organized group for worship."
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EndofMysteries
Island Man - that's a very excellent way of reasoning. I'll have to remember that the next time this issue is brought up among my relatives.
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tornapart
@Oub.. great reasoning. I'm going to remember some of those points!