only JW's can analize scripture because they are spiritual

by never a jw 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Following is my exchange with an elder whom I bombarded with many questions of JW doctrine (false prophecies and changed doctrine) and contradictions in the Bible. He pretty much remains silent or evasive. Always answers very respectfully. He is a prominent elder, who always speaks in conventions. He is the assistant (replacement) of the C.O. The whole family is very well known because there are lawyers in Bethel, C.O.'s, and elders. No more details because he can easily be identified by anyone living in his area. Enjoy his circular reasoning that goes like this.

    Scripture is from God. Only spiritual people can read scripture. i declare I am spiritual, you are not. therefore I understand scripture, you don't.

    May 17, 2014

    Dear never a jw,
    I know changes and errors are a big worry for you, [he is referring to all the WT screw ups that I have brought to his attention]and I understand why. Seen from your point of view, it's logical to conclude what you have concluded. But, from what I have read in the Greek Scriptures, there were many problems back then too. That, in and of itself, did not mean those were not true Christians. They were simply imperfect, as we all are.
    There is, however, one big difference between then and now. You can read about it in the reasoning book, under the subject "Jehovah's Witnesses". Whereas the apostles were inspired to write what they wrote, today's Governing body has never professed to be inspired.
    I think one of the reasons we disagree so much is that we each look at life very differently. I see things in a spiritual (religious) light, you see them in afleshly (pragmatic) light. We each persue different ends, we have a different outlook on the past, present and future… You may think I'm just dodging the issue. I understand that. But logic tells me we are just not on the same page, and will never agree until we are.

    Elder

    May 18

    Dear elder,

    I want to believe that I am in the page of the "scientific" approach. I hope I adhere to the group that tries to explain phenomena that can be confirmed with our five senses and leave the rest, the invisible and capricious, to religion and religious… I believe that religious dogma is a waste of the human intellect that may keep some people happy, but parasitic and burdensome to the rest (doctors, scientists, engineers, inventors, etc) who are succesfully solving the challenges facing humanity….I rather direct my efforts towards the satisfaction of the very tangible needs of my fellow humans than spin my wheels spreading dogma that only serves to confirm the beliefs of the dwellers of Plato's cave.

    Never a jw

    May 18, 2014

    Dear never a jw,

    I see your point, I really do. My view is based on 1 Corinthians 2:14 which I quote, not to refute what you say, but because it is true: " 14 But a physical man does not accept* the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things,+ but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah,* so that he may instruct him?”+ But we do have the mind of Christ.+" It has to do with point of view, so, it is very hard, next to impossible, to change a deeply entrenched point of view, such as yours and mine.
    Do you not agree?

    Elder

    May 19, 2014

    Dear elder

    Agree. But it doesn't mean that every part of your belief system is so divorced from mine that it is impossible to test it using agreed upon conventions. And with a modicum of honesty, in your part and my part, determine its flaws and weaknesses. The obstacle to testing some of your beliefs is not agreeing on a standard, but rather your total refusal to even take the test. Do you remember your reaction to my suggestion to do an in-depth research of the article "When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed" using the very same resources the WT researchers use to support their claims.

    While I admit that I still don't precisely grasp what people mean when they say "spirituality", I don't deny that there's something marvelous and mysterious about life and the mind, but I refuse to speculate lest I commit the "argument from ignorance". I will let religious people have their never ending speculations and debates about divine purpose and interpretation of scripture. I can assess scripture only by its ability to describe reality as perceived by the senses and confirmed objectively. So I won't even start a debate regarding the existence of God. However, I can assess, for example, "past events" such as creation and the flood because we have reliable methods and evidence to confirm or disconfirm them. Regarding religion, because it consist of perceivable actions and claims by humans, can be assessed using methods similar to those used by scientists and historians.

    never a jw

    May 18, 2014

    Dear never a jw,

    I do not agree with your conclusion that you can analyze Acripture on your own. Of course, my basis for believing so is Scriptural. 1 Corinthians 2:11: "11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God". But it is also logical.
    For example, would we expect a person with no knowledgeof Mathematics to understand complicated equations. First some rudimentary knowledge is needed, and then, depending on the difficulty, some private tutoring may be necessary.
    It's just as Jesus also said at Luke 10:21 "In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones+ and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved."
    It also seems logical that a fair God would allow all persons, even those with very little education, to understand his Word. How? By helping them, with his Holy Spirit, with his Word and with his people. Don't you agree?

    Elder

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Stop playing his game my man. You need to nail him with "The Criteria For Truth." Don't let him create a strawman [ I think] and make "mistakes" the issue, they are not. Everyone makes mistakes, The issue is that the WTBTS claims to be the sole channel of truth. What they taught for decades about the FDS identity, what all JWs had to believe for salvation, was not true. If it's not true, it's not the truth. If your belief system is comprised of ideas that are not correct or true, then you shouldn't call it "THE TRUTH." You certainly shouldn't claim to be better than others or more "spiritual."

    I would call him out on saying that you are fleshly and he is spiritual. Then I would attempt to make him admit that he does not KNOW God's name, and admit that no one does. Don't dwell on pronunciation [ believe he will try], just make him admit that nobody knows it. Get him to send you the info from the AID book about Raymundis Martini. Then simply ask, " You admit that nobody knows God's actual name. How then, can you claim using God's "name" as proof that you alone have "the truth??"

    Then I would ask if HE can interpret scripture, or is it just someone at HQ?? When he says that only the GB can interpret the scriptures, tell him that you knew:

    1) All Christians were domestics. [ You used different translations and a Strong's Concordance]

    2) There was no "slave class" as previously taught by the WTBTS.

    3] No human has been appointed over Christ's belongings.

    Ask him if he thinks those 3 things are "truth", and how could you possible know those things from your personal study if his statement about the GB interpreting scripture was a "truth."

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/275576/1/Active-JWs-can-you-defend-THE-TRUTH#.U3qhKtJdWSo

    DD

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    "You can read about it in the reasoning book"

    Classic !!

    In other words, if you want to verify that WT is correct, please refer to WT literature.... where it says that WT is correct.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Here's the latest exchange today

    Dear elder

    So what you are saying is that you can read the scripture and remake the history of the Earth and history of antiquity and modern times, adapt it to your spiritual preconceived ideas and screw the experts because they are a bunch of idiots who don't understand my spiritual brain and soul.

    If that's so, why would the watchtower quote over and over and over again from Bible scholars, historians, biologists, archaeologists, engineers, etc. Since those experts are incapable of understanding spirituality, what authority does the WT appeal to. Might as well create your own world, your own history and live in your own land (Oceania).

    Incredible, just the most incredible form of circular reasoning. What do you make of the highly spiritual leadership of the WT which has changed the interpretation of scripture hundreds of times. Were they spiritual before the change or after the change. Were they spiritual when the FDS was Charles T. Russell, or when the FDS was the anointed, or the FDS is the current Governing Body. You have to choose which is the spiritual period of the Watchtower so we can denounce the impostors. Who is (are) the impostor(s), Russell, Rutherford and Franz, or the current Governing Body? Never a JW

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    His response

    Dear never a jw,

    Daniel 12:9,10, Proverbs 4:18 and Acts 1:6 will shed light on that subject.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    DD

    I will look into the suggestions. I have tried lots of subjects in the past but not the one you are writing about.

    ADCMS,

    I read the part of the reasoning book but missed the significance of the comment regarding their typical circular reasoning

  • AFRIKANMAN
    AFRIKANMAN

    Never a JW : A Freudian slip in the title of this post??.................But JDubs can indeed ANALIZE the scriptures.

    He sounds like a very conceited person - SuperFine in his own estimation of himself - And he is right in this respect - You will never end up on the same page with him.........He is faaarrr too spiritual for you and I .....................Move on

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    Stop wasting your time JW's see all things through thier indictrination, even when that facts are staring them in the face they will not except it!!!

  • princecharmant
    princecharmant

    Yes, indeed.

    Only they can analize scripture! You couldn't put it any better...

    pc

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Just looking at this one part:-

    But, from what I have read in the Greek Scriptures, there were many problems back then too. That, in and of itself, did not mean those were not true Christians. They were simply imperfect, as we all are.

    This is utter hogwash as we know. Nowhere did these men shun people for not believing their crap and neither did they print it or force it onto people. If he's referring to the usual scriptures, these were people simply asking questions. (Not that I even believe they existed but just for argument's sake....), This whole line of 'reasonong' is null and void.

    As for his view and your view....bleugh

    TBH- He's insulting you and elevating himself.

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