So in your view snare&racket it would seem a computer does have consciousness, just a lower level depending on the instructions, webcams and peripherals it has. Or perhaps your view is that consciousness is an illusion?
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 149 Replies latest jw friends
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snare&racket
Why not ask a question instead of answering my question.
For the third time now.....
What is missing from input, processing and output...that you feel consciousness requires?
I see no missing element provided by biological, material means. I see no room or requirement for a soul or anything to meet the definition of conscious,
As for your question, as I have said several times, it is a theory, we have never designed a computer with that aim. No your dell is not conscious. No my ipad is not conscious.
No I made clear I do not believe there is a concept of 'levels' of consciousness so no my computer is not somewhat conscious or less conscious. It has not been built to replicate a conscious organism, it has been built to send emails and watch Froch beat Groves via live streaming. However as I said in my first reply, I do believe we would and could see A.I. soon... a 'conscious' technology.
Again seraphim, the fourth time, in the hope you answer it....
What is missing in INPUT, PROCESSING and OUTPUT, that we know the brain can achieve through physiology alone, that would require an outside source for or any source other than biological....to have 'consciousness'. Again, what is missing from the natural?
Self aware and aware of the external...we are...we can see we are alive, on a planet, with a finite existence and with dangers to our existence. We can see we are one of many animals, many of our own species. We survive, interact and procreate and ALL with biological means.
So a fifth time, this time with bold and highlighting.....
What is missing from the simple, materialistic.......input, processing and output....... to produce 'consciousness'?
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Seraphim23
snare&racket I was asking questions in part to better understand your point of view. Answering questions with questions is an ancient tradition for very wise reasons. However as you ask for the fifth time, my answer is I think a soul is missing from the simple, materialistic, input, processing and output to produce 'consciousness`.
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Finkelstein
I cant believe computers has now come into the discussion.
Computers are human consciousness and thinking by implantation and design.
Unplug the computer and what stops ?
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snare&racket
No.... if you don't understand where you just went wrong, there is no point continuing. That was either dishonest or illogical.
On the off chance it was illogical....
I just asked why a soul is necessary for there to be consciousness within biology alone, and your answer is there is no soul in biology alone.
I hope you can see your flawed approach. You have started with the assumption of a soul, fine if you want to believe in one without evidence. But if you claim there is logic to believing in a soul because we are conscious....
well, then you have to answer the question...
for a 6th time....
WHAT IS MISSING? what does biology NOT DO, that you believe is required to make something conscious? You must believe a soul has a role (ta da). What is it? What do you think a soul does so as to assume we must have one?
I see NO ROLE in producing consciousness that out biology alone, does not produce.
Our biology can create this idea we have of consciousness.......WITHOUT the assumption of a soul.
your answer is.....well there is a soul....:P
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Seraphim23
Understanding involves infinity in some way and it’s that I think is missing from input, processing and output contained in biology, or anything else a processing device is made out of, and it can be made of anything.
For example, one x two always gives the same answer as two times one. If one understands this rule and why it works, as opposed to merely processing it, one also knows that it will work for all infinite numbers. To `know` that this is the case, if one is only processing information would require all numbers to be processed, but that would take forever because of their being an infinite amount. Yet those possessed of consciousness and awareness don’t have to process every infinite number, in order to know what the answer is for all infinite numbers. Thus infinitely is involved in understanding and that is what is missing in finite biological processing systems. I call it a soul, as by definition infinity goes outside of the finite and brains are finite.
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snare&racket
Do you think a dog has a soul, because dogs do math all the time..... they are amazing at geometry...and for once I am being serious. Throw a ball in the sea at an angle from where you are, for example and they use pythagoras to work out the length of the longest side, they will usually run down the beach perpendicular to where you threw it in, then swim 90 degrees straight to the ball, rather than hop into the sea and swim a longer distance.
I have no idea what that answer was by the way, no disrespect.
Also, you are assuming we do know everything anout maths, you even invoked infinity....We don't and our math and probability skills stink!
The only reason we know math works like that, is not because we know everything, but because math doesnt change.
Math is the assigning of value to a measured entity, be it number of items or distance or whatever. Been as the value we assign never changes, one will always be one and founded on decimal thinking, i.e. in tens, this will bever change, because we made the rules.
Scientists think we would have computers alot earlier if we had 6 fingers, as we would not have made a math system based on ten, but on 6, just as computers work.
Your perception of everything is restricted hugely by what you don't know, be it how we formed maths or human biology. I mean no offence by that statement. I am restricted too, that is why I do not claim to know the existence of unproven entities such as souls or otherwise.
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Seraphim23
I’m not sure you understand my answer but I would say understanding itself proves what you call unproven entities like souls. Also I am not assuming we know everything about maths because it may well be infinite in scope but I am saying infinity is implicated in comprehending and understanding. This is why no computer will ever be able to calculate something true or false about infinite numbers yet we can by something other than calculating.
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snare&racket
Computers are the best thing on planet earth at calculating , we use them to do exactly that!
I don't think you know what you mean anymore.
We know what is true by what is evident. Truth by definition is belief based on evidence.
But it is easy to prove you wrong about what you think truth is, you see it as infinite truth.....something we dont have! Never have had! We have made many mistakes as a race as have many living things. Believing assumptions such as the earth being flat, but when more,evidence came to light, adapted our 'truth'.
Truth is dependant on what we learn via our inputs, our eyes, our nose, our ears...all our senses. We saw a flat earth with our eyes and for most of humanity that was the truth about our pkanet, of course it wasn't true.
You assume our truths are true and therefore there must be a source. But we will likely be proven wrong about much that we know. So how can you guve 'truth' such status?
What is tue, is simply what we observe. One and one apples amounts to having two apples.
That is logic and language, we assigned the word apple to the item in the tree and we measure quantity with words we have ascribed a number system to.
Somehow you think this means there is a soul. Without explaining it, you say "i am not sure you understand."
Of course I don't! I don't think you do either. We have now gone from math, to truth... I wonder what is next?
You can't ascribe truth to maths, it is our mechanism of measurement. We literally wrote the rules for maths and continue to do so. We have math based on a decimal system, as I said, it could have been based on a system of 6 heximal? and we would have computers earlier in human history (maybe). Math is not a perfect, unbreakable truth!
I could say the length of my forearm is the measurement 'zingabumbum' and then quantify a numerical system based on my forearm measurement and the bum bum numerical system. It would be useable, it would be true, it would be applicable to science, learning, logic...everything... but it would be my invention. Hardly infinite truth.
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Finkelstein
As for Human physiology, consciousness exists out of necessity of survival, without it we would simply die.
Its interesting to note that most if not all imaginative expressive forms of the soul that were thought of in human history
originated from spiritualist beliefs, without any apparent evidence.