If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?

by Seraphim23 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    We tend to be brain worshipers. The brain is another organ of the body. The brain is embedded in an organism.

    Yes, and historically man has tended to place his own mind or brain on a pedestal above other animals' as if only his has consciousness, but we can see now that this is not the case. If we are going to talk about what makes man conscious then we also have to consider what animals are conscious of. Some animals take care of each other across even large species boundaries. Some have the same feelings of friendship that we do and recognize themselves in mirrors. They can use tools and plan ahead.

    So if we follow the order of decreasing complexity back from mammals to birds, snails, single-celled organisms, etc.... where does the consciousness start? Because it looks like a continuous spectrum to me. Naturally a more complex brain can understand more complex symbols than a simpler brain. But all brains seem to have the same predictable reactions to the same input; it's just more obvious with simpler brains because the brain is considering fewer factors and has less individuality in simpler animals.

    These facts are the reason it is highly unlikely that scientists will be able to duplicate some aspects of human thinking.

    Are you sure you meant to say "unlikely"? Surely the material nature of the mind means that it is more likely to be able to be simulated than if there were something special about it that went beyond the physical.

    The mathematical Mandelbrot set is an example of this, in that a very simple mathematical equation produces almost infinite complexity when run on a computer.

    Not to nitpick, but (whether computing it by hand or on a computer), fractals do have infinite complexity, not almost, just like there is an infinity of numbers, not an almost-infinity.

    It’s a kind of `emergent property`! In this case the property is complexity but from something very simple without anything obvious added to it to explain why this should be. What is missing in the descriptor ` emergent property` is any explanation of how or why something simple can produce complexity

    Well, in the case of the fractal, the complexity comes from the fact that the simple formula is being run many times per pixel for thousands of pixels in order to produce an image. There's a lot of work being done, and it's being done with different coordinates as input for each pixel. So there's a fair amount of information going in; no information is being created. Why the information arranges itself in natural-looking shapes, though, is perhaps still a mystery.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    I said near infinite because a computer is finite in the amount of calculations it can produce and thus in practice it is not infinitely complex because no computer can calculate an infinite amount of numbers/pixels as that would take literally forever.

    I used fractals as an example because such geometry mirrors that found in nature in that the patterns look similar at all scales, as is the case of that found in nature. Evolution creates information in a not totally dissimilar way because of the interplay between environment and mutation that builds up useful information on the genetic level over time. With the Mandelbrot set, it can be said that new information is being created just like evolution does, as both use a form of feedback. With evolution the feedback is between the environment and genes and back again over time. With the Mandelbrot set, the feedback is that the output of the equation is used as the input over and over again.

    As nature is also governed by a set of mathematical laws and feedbacks occur within that system also, there are going to be parallels between nature and the Mandelbrot set and other similar equations like the Mandelbrot set not surprisingly! However it certainly cannot be said that no new information has been created within the universe since its beginning and there is the mystery I am talking about. Something more than mathematical rules in needed to explain this, as the universe seems to be more than the sum of the mathematics used to describe the laws of physics. 2 and 2 is still adding up to 5 in a sense!

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    We distinguish quite clearly between the living and the inanimate. There are a few markers, like the ability to replicate. Rocks can't do that.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    That’s very true jgnat. The lower the level and scale one looks at a brain and a rock, the more the two start looking the same as the complexity content goes down, which could imply that the difference is one of complexity. Of course all things are energy at the lowest level and apparently all energy is the same but then it all gets very strange indeed because all things are not the same as with a brain and rock. Of course if consciousness is that `special` in the universe, then it may still imply animism if it is the brain creating it. How processes, physical laws and so called emergent phenomenon do this is still as much of a mystery as all things starting off as the same energy and then becoming separated into different things after the big bang. It always seems something more is required in order to make the explanations comprehensible and complete.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    There is not just the matter of complexity, but the ability to replicate, which distinguishes those things that are alive from things that are not. Things that are alive can die. Rocks don't.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    By the way, people can classify at the macro level very well. We can tell the difference between furniture and fruit, for instance. Our distinctions become ever more complex when we drill down to the details. For instance, does an upended bucket become a footstool when we use it to rest our feet?

    Our drive to classify and the challenges to distinguish come with the way our minds organize things and the limitations of language. An object's classification is not inherent to the object, but our very human way of placing it in context in our world.

  • cofty
    cofty

    The lower the level and scale one looks at a brain and a rock, the more the two start looking the same

    reductio ad absurdum

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Lichen:

    Lichen

    Coral:

    Coral

    Brain rocks of North Coyote Buttes:

    North Coyote Buttes

  • jgnat
  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    I said near infinite because a computer is finite in the amount of calculations it can produce and thus in practice it is not infinitely complex because no computer can calculate an infinite amount of numbers/pixels as that would take literally forever.

    That's like saying that the equation x = 2y generates a finite line because your geometry teacher cannot draw an infinitely long line on the chalkboard when representing the equation. Fractals are infinitely recursive. This is a mathematical statement which is not bound by the abilities of computers.

    Evolution creates information

    It's tricky to talk about information. What is information? Does it have to be a concept intelligible to humans, or is it simply the state of a set of particles? This one is here and rotated like this, that one is there and moving in this direction, etc. If that's the case, then you cannot create or destroy information. All that evolution does is reorganize particles in complex formations. But the particles already existed, or at least they were built with energy that existed since the beginning of the universe. There is no proverbial "extra one" in a "2 + 2 = 5" equation. The equation is more like changing "1 + 3 = 4" to "2 + 2 = 4".

    With the Mandelbrot set, it can be said that new information is being created just like evolution does, as both use a form of feedback.

    Nope, sorry. Patterns are being created by mapping the relationship of different coordinates' effects on a fixed equation, z = z ^ 2 + c. No new information.

    We distinguish quite clearly between the living and the inanimate. There are a few markers, like the ability to replicate. Rocks can't do that.

    Sorry again, but this is not a clear distinction at all. There is no unanimous agreement on what life is, despite what we were taught in biology class. As I mentioned back here, there are a number of forms of quasi-life that blur the boundaries between ourselves and rocks.

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