the JW 1914/WWI connection doesn't make sense

by Magnum 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Magnum

  JWs always touted WWI’s beginning in 1914 as evidence that the Kingdom was born in heaven in that year. I was told that since Satan was cast out of heaven, he started stirring up trouble on earth - like WWI. But there’s one problem with that – WWI started some months before Oct 1914 (the month when the kingdom was supposedly born).

  I asked JWs about that in the mid 1980’s, and I was told that Satan started WWI before Oct 1914 to divert attention away from the birth of the kingdom. I swallowed that explanation (with a little difficulty) back then. But as the years passed and I thought about it more, it made less sense. Nobody would have known anything about the birth of an invisible kingdom anyway. There was nothing away from which to draw attention. I mean, like, how was anybody going to know? Were there going to be fireworks? Was there going to be a parade?

  If, though, all this invisible kingdom stuff is real and Satan is real and he did start WWI a few months before the birth of the kingdom to draw attention away from it, then he’s one stupid dumbass. He has less strategic sense than Gomer Pyle in a game of backyard chess. If it’s all real, then he actually did the opposite of what he supposedly intended to do.

  Think about it. Had there been no WWI, things would have just continued on normally with society just changing gradually as it normally does. If there was a kingdom born in heaven, nobody on earth would have had even the slightest indication or noticed at all. But Satan gave JWs reason to notice; rather then distract, he turned attention towards - at least to JWs; he gave them ammunition for their argument. He gave them the one thing that is the closest to the fulfillment of a prophecy that they’ve ever had. If JWs didn’t have WWI, their argument would be much weaker. Satan helped them out. His strategy was pathetic. Just think what it would be like if JWs didn't have WWI. They say that the world entered a new era in 1914 because of WWI, and that's indication the Kingdom was born then.

  So the whole thing doesn't make sense. I see only two possible choices. 1) Satan is a dumbass and he started WWI thinking he was going to turn attention away from the kingdom, but the scheme had the opposite effect. If that's the case, I'll never fear his stupid ass again. What a moron. 2) WWi had nothing to do with the birth of an invisible kingdom.
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  AndDontCallMeShirley

  I was told that Satan started WWI before Oct 1914 to divert attention away from the birth of the kingdom

  .

  You bring up some excellent arguments, Magnum, but unfortunately such simple logic will make no headway with a JW.

  .

  To your point, had nothing happened in 1914 that fit WT prophecy, and life went on normally, I'm sure WT would have argued that WW1 DID happen...."invisibly".

  Even if we show a little humor and accept WTs explanation as-is, the bigger question becomes: how completely inept is Jesus, in that he's supposed to be the new most-powerful king of the new most-powerful government in history- yet no one notices the event and his opponent easily diverts attention from him and wins the day?
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  sparrowdown

  There is a scripture somewhere which tells of Jesus arriving and that "every eye will see... blah blah."

  The sister giving a talk one night explained to her "householder" that it was an

  "invisible presence because it not possible for everyone in the world to literally see Jesus all at the same time".

  She goes on...."So we will see him with our "mental" eyes". To which of course the "householder" nods obediently.

  In the audience I just completely lost it. I could not stop laughing there were tears running down my face.

  I still laugh at the thought of seeing Jesus with our "mental eyes".

  Oh they're "mental" alright. Idiots.
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  AndDontCallMeShirley

  "...it not possible for everyone in the world to literally see Jesus all at the same time".

  .

  So I guess that means with God all things are NOT possible...so much for that theory.

  Mental is right.
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  kaik

  WT puts too much emphasis on WWI as breaking point in the humanity, but for Europeans, it was rather forgotten war once WWII erupted. WWI started in July 28, 1914 before the JW claimed born of the invisible kingdom in October. However, [WT] fails to mention that war in Balkans was already in progress for several years as a result of disintegration of the Ottoman Empire and mutual war between Serbia and Bulgaria over Macedonia where others countries joined for their benefits. The war eventually spilled into A-U where Bosnia had huge Serbian minorities. Once the WWI ended, antiquated monarchies were gone, but much of the political structures remained intact until 1940's. France continued as III. Republic until 1940. Germany was still European superpower as was Soviet Russia [renamed USSR]. Countries that were created on the ruins of Austrian empire inherited pretty much entire political and economic system that surived interwar period until communist takeover.

  WT used to claim that WWII was a mortal wound of the Beast that went to abyss and returned with a full strenght. WWI has nothing to do with the heavenly Kingdom. Russell believed that the end of times started with Napoleonic Wars and French Revolution. When Rutherford usurped power over WT, there were no more any survivors of the Napoleonic Wars, so he moved the beginning of the end for another 100 years.
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  LoisLane looking for Superman

  Which part of the JW religion, typed out by the Writing Dept., okay'd by the Legal Dept, and passed by the Governing Body, does make since ?

  LL
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  A.proclaimer

  *** w72 6/1 pp. 351-352 Questions From Readers ***
  
  Questions From Readers
  Why did the beginning of World War I not coincide with the early part of October, when the “appointed times of the nations” ended?—U.S.A.
  As has often been shown in this magazine, the conferring of kingship over the nations on Christ Jesus took place in 1914 C.E., at the expiration of the “appointed times of the nations” or the Gentile Times. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:16, 17, 31, 32) Those “appointed times” began 2,520 years earlier, after the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. and the assassination of the Jewish governor Gedaliah. The murder of Gedaliah in the month of Tishri (September/October) (“at the seventh new moon,” Byington translation) prompted those Jews left remaining in the land of Judah to flee. (Jer. 41:1, 2; 43:2-7) By the time the fearful Jews fled to Egypt it must have been at least the middle of Tishri, to allow enough time for the events mentioned in the Bible as taking place between the assassination and the flight. (Compare Jeremiah 41:4, 10–42:7.) This would place the start of the Gentile Times about Tishri 15, 607 B.C.E.
  At the end of the Gentile Times, about Tishri 15 (October 4/5), 1914 C.E., Revelation 11:15 was fulfilled: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” By enthroning his Son Jesus Christ, Jehovah God took his power to rule as King over the world of mankind. The rulership of the great Adversary, Satan the Devil, was due to end.
  Being the ‘ruler of the world’ of mankind alienated from God, Satan certainly did not want to see the Kingdom take full control of earth’s affairs. (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) Over nineteen centuries earlier he maneuvered matters in such a way that, had it not been for divine intervention, Herod the Great would have killed the infant Jesus. (Matt. 2:13) Similarly, even before the birth of the heavenly kingdom, Satan readied himself and his demons for an attack. This is symbolically described at Revelation 12:3-5, where we read: “Another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne.”
  It should not be surprising, then, that World War I broke out about two months before the end of the Gentile Times, and hence beforethe birth of the symbolic “son” or heavenly kingdom. Satan the Devil did not need to wait until after kingship over the nations had been placed in the hands of Jesus Christ to maneuver the nations into a large-scale war. The start of that sanguinary conflict was doubtless part of his scheme to blind persons to what had happened in the heavens in fulfillment of Bible prophecy and also, if at all possible, to hinder the Kingdom from ruling over the world of mankind.

  The Revelation book makes no mention of this when you look up the commentary for Revelation 12:3-5 so there's a discrepancy. Doesn't make sense either, no where does it say Satan will start a war or cause trouble on earth while waiting for the child to be born. It's a very weak interpretation. Aside from that, the Herod example doesn't work very well since his order to kill infants came long after Jesus birth, different from 1914 where Satan caused the War before hand, before the birth of the child according to them. World War 1 build itself up for a long time, 1914 was just the tipping point from a conflict that started long ago.

  Other points to consider: Russells prediction was just a drop in the bucket out of many other predictions of his time. John Aquila Brown predicted the "full glory of Israel" for 1917, year which they were liberated from the Turks. Robert Fleming predicted the fall of the Papacy and French Monarcy for the end of the 18th century which the pope was executed around that time. Doesn't mean that they correctly predicted these events though they came close

  like Carl Olof Jonsson points out: "How could Christ’s kingdom have been so weak in 1914 that it ran the risk of being devoured by Satan and therefore had to be “caught away” from his gaping jaws to God’s throne?" (the Gentile Times Reconsidered, 2004 p.272)
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  prologos

  Satan starts a pre-emptive war on earth, but is only confined to it later, knowing then, that he has a SHORT (SORT OF) time,-- 100+ years--.
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  Ocean1111

  I think this minutia distracts from the more basic historic pattern of the development of world government.

  1. WW1 did resolve to birth a League of Nations globalist world government foundation in 1919.

  2. WW2 also resolved into another UN world government rendition in 1945.

  3. Cold WW3 also resolved into the UN "new world order" presentation in 1990.

  4. Now GWOT can go into phase 2, WW4, and also resolve into full world government in the future. (In a way the "global war" "on terror" is already WW4 inception, by basic definition of "global war")

  So it is the WW1 inception of this cyclic use of global conflict, to resolve into a world government advancement, that is really the basic historic truth of 1914, when the cycles started.

  Propehcy really is neither here nor there as regards the basics of the progression of world government - world government development has commenced with that intent, regardless of prophecy, in it's fundamental reality. (not saying prophecy doesn't foretell it, but that even without prophecy, world government has a well known history and inception.)

  The final cycle (4) will obviously, by historic precedent and simple intuition, resolve into world government.
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  sparrowdown

  If satan and his demons were hurled down to earth in 1914.

  Wouldn't it have been more strategic and advantageous on his part to cause the world's governments to succeed.

  Then he could say that man can rule himself, they don't need God.

  WW1 just proves Gods point so why would satan want to do that.

  You're right there are so many things about WW1/1914 that just don't make sense.