Reconciling animals and suffering

by Pacopoolio 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pacopoolio
    Pacopoolio

    Raymond,

    That view isn't scientifically backed up, however. Not only are "higher thinking" (we're talking, like, cats and up) animals aware of their own pain; they are also EMPATHETIC enough to recognize pain in other creatures that they're symathetic to. In fact, current science is hedging towards even things that we previously thought to not feel pain, like shellfish, possibly having a different type of pain sensory input that we just don't recognize given reactions to their harm.

    It also has errors (that invalidate the whole claim). For instance, it's not true that only "higher apes" have prefrontal cortexes. Even rodents do! (and mice are VERY intelligent animals) And even if the claim was true, it's only the author's supposition that this means they "don't realllly feel pain," there's no evidence for it at all.

    He's basically doing what the WTS attempted to do when covering this lesson - started from an assumption that humans and animals are uniquely different, and then layering the assumption with, "since God is good, then he must have made their pain different, so we'll just say whatever differences are there are what makes the pain different even though we can obviously see that those animals show the exact same pain indicators that we do when injured!"

    The most telling part of that excerpt, though, is that, if that is the indicator of the difference in pain and why it's okay to kill other living beings, it becomes a support for even late term abortion.

  • Pacopoolio
    Pacopoolio

    Also, why would God have to create predators? He's omnipotent - he could make whatever type of system he wanted.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    God's creation makes no sense.

    God created Eve out of Adam's rib. That means that Adam had ribs before woman and the sin.

    Ribs are for protection to the body. Why would a perfect person need protection to the body?

    Couldn't it heal itself?

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    maybe the question pacopoolio is not what is right in your eyes but what is more viable in God's eyes .Maybe we live in a universe that complex biological ecosystems are viable in that order .We are dealing with an inteligence vastly superior than our understanding or sense of justice.

  • Pacopoolio
    Pacopoolio

    Even if that God did exist, the reason why he's worshipped (by Christians) is that he is a loving, benevolent God (supposedly). The "loving" and "benevolent" is a human description of that God's actions, according to Christianity. What loving and benevolent person would torture their pets to death for no reason at all?

    If you take the Jewish viewpoint that God is good and bad, and a lot less powerful of a creature, then different arguments would apply.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    this sound more like a Gnostic approach to the nature of God .This approach has been there since the beginning of the Christian congragation.The sense of rightousness is inherent to you because you have been given a counscience and an internal moral code by a Source .Objective moral values have no meaning ,or your sense of injustice without a Moral Law giver.

  • Pacopoolio
    Pacopoolio

    It's specifically how God is described in the Old Testament - the older the book, the "lesser" he is described. And, while Judaism has evolved, that's still the basic viewpoint of the religion today.

    Christianity "stole" Judaism's God and tried to retcon it as a more benevolent being while upping its power level to more powerful than any other God. but by doing this, it creates conflicts with a lot of God's actions and descriptions in the Old Testament that need huge apologetics to attempt to fill.

  • cognisonance
  • cofty
    cofty

    Objective moral values have no meaning ,or your sense of injustice without a Moral Law giver.

    Utter nonsense.

    There is no absolute standard of morality, like some Platonic Triangle against which all other 3 sided shapes must be measured.

    However, objective morality is only possible if we rid ourselves of deities. If there is a god then anything she deems to be good, from genocide to slavery, is automatically virtuous.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    Thanks cognisonance ,I read your article and it makes many valid points which I will try to address to the best of my ability .While I'm answering it I'll try to brake it down to small sections so we deal with one thing at a time.

    1. Anthropomorphizing animals :Much of the question of cruelty involves the tendency of humans to anthropomorphize animals. From early childhood, we are shown animals acting like humans. In cartoons and comic strips, animals talk, kiss, read, dance, play golf, and sing as humans do. Films like Lion King have carried the tradition of Disney on with the same effect.

    The inability to distinguish between fantasy and the real world has become a problem in many ways in our culture, but it is especially serious when it results in human suffering and need. Animals are not humans and the portrayals that give them the total range of human abilities and feelings is at least misguided.

    As I said earlier the more complex the biological entity the more complex it's nervous system and therefore it's ability to feel pain .

    2.Animals do not feel pain as we do. Pain is a psychological experience separate from behavioral reactions to injurious stimuli. Pain involves both perception and an emotional response. When you hit your thumb with a hammer, there is an immediate perception that you have been injured. The emotional aspect that follows involves suffering, but is not necessarily a part of the perception. You can have a great deal of pain that results from the death of someone you love and not have any perceptual response at all.

    The term nociception refers to the detection of an injury by the nervous system (which may or may not lead to pain). A starfish has a primitive nervous system that interconnects sensory receptors that detect injurious stimuli with muscle cells that cause movements enabling the starfish to move away from nociceptive stimuli. Starfish have no brain so there is no pain.

    The human central nervous system has a large cerebral hemisphere and a brain stem connected to a spinal cord. Nociceptive stimuli can cause an immediate protective reaction called a reflex, but pain has not been felt by the person. The nociceptive activity is transmitted to the brain stem where additional protective reactions take place (avoidance responses, verbalizations). The nociceptive activity is transmitted from the brain stem to various parts of the cerebral hemispheres where it activates conscious awareness of the nociceptive stimulus and generates the emotional unpleasantness of pain.

    In a fish, you have a simpler version of the spinal cord and brain stem, but the neural functions are similar to that of humans. The cerebral hemispheres of the fish lack the regions necessary for conscious awareness and for generation of pain experience. Awareness of pain is associated with the brain stem and spinally generated behavioral reactions.

    All mammals have enlarged cerebral hemispheres that are mainly an outer layer of neocortex. In humans, this neocortex is massively developed and this is the key to our ability to experience pain. If the cerebral hemispheres of a human are destroyed, a comatose vegetative state results. If the cerebral hemispheres of a fish are destroyed, the fish's behavior is normal in most ways. The unpleasant part of pain in humans is generated by specific regions of the frontal lobes of the cerebral hemispheres. Other mammals have radically different sized frontal lobes. The brains of sheep and deer, for example, have a tiny fraction of the frontal lobe mass that humans have. Their perception of pain cannot possibly be anything like ours. Note: The above data is from an article by Dr. James D. Rose, Department of Zoology and Physiology at the University of Wyoming, Laramie, titled "Do Fish Feel Pain?," In Fisherman, December, 1999.

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