New Light: 3rd heaven?

by problemaddict 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • problemaddict
    problemaddict

    Forgive me if this has been covered. Last year I did a synopsis of the convention, but my wife decided she did not want to go this year (thats a win), so I didn't either. A good friend of mine however tipped me to something in David Splanes talk.

    Its pretty mild, but seems a bit wacky. There now appears to be a third heaven. Since I was not there I would love some confirmation of this.

    1) Physical heaven - You know......where all of the angels are.

    2) Spiritual heaven - The brotherhood in association with "mother".

    3) Now there is a third super duper heaven I suppose where only jehovah resides?

    Can anyone confirm or offer more of the justification they used here?

    New light is almost like new releases now! Need one at every major event. Of course, this doesn't seem to be all that interesting.

  • Splash
    Splash

    Isn't the third heaven our current spiritual paradise?

    I've seen something on this board recently that discusses this.

    Splash

  • blondie
    blondie

    (2 Corinthians 12:1-7) 12 I have to boast. It is not beneficial; but I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of [the] Lord. 2 I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. 3 Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows— 4 that he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak. 5 Over such a man I will boast, but I will not boast over myself, except as respects [my] weaknesses. 6 For if I ever do want to boast, I shall not be unreasonable, for I shall say the truth. But I abstain, in order that no one should put to my credit more than what he sees I am or he hears from me, 7 just because of the excess of the revelations.. . .

    *** it-1 p. 1065 Heaven ***

    Third Heaven. At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was “caught away . . . to the third heaven” and “into paradise.” Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle’s own experience. Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul’s reference to the third heaven to the early rabbinic view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of “seven heavens,” this view finds no support in the Scriptures. As we have seen, the heavens are not referred to specifically as if divided into platforms or stages, but, rather, the context must be relied upon to determine whether reference is to the heavens within earth’s atmospheric expanse, the heavens of outer space, the spiritual heavens, or something else. It therefore appears that the reference to “the third heaven” indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. Note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3; Ezekiel 21:27; John 21:15-17; Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.

    *** w04 10/15 p. 8 Paradise—For You? ***A Vision of Paradise

    4 In this connection, note what the apostle Paul wrote: “I know a man in union with Christ who . . . was caught away as such to the third heaven. Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows—that he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak.” (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) That passage comes right after verses in which Paul defended his apostleship. Moreover, the Bible does not speak of any other person who had such an experience, and Paul is the one who tells us of it. So it was likely Paul who had this vision. In this supernatural experience, what “paradise” did he enter?—2 Corinthians 11:5, 23-31.

    5 The context does not suggest that “the third heaven” refers to the atmosphere around our globe, nor to outer space or to any parallel universes, as postulated by astrophysicists. The Bible often uses the number three to represent emphasis, intensity, or added strength. (Ecclesiastes 4:12; Isaiah 6:3; Matthew 26:34, 75; Revelation 4:8) Thus, what Paul saw in vision was elevated or exalted. It was spiritual.

    *** w70 12/15 pp. 767-768 Questions From Readers ***

    ● What is the “third heaven” and “paradise” to which 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 refers?—R. B., U.S.A.

    At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was “caught away . . . to the third heaven” and “into paradise.” Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle Paul’s own experience. Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul’s reference to the “third heaven” to the early Rabbinical view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of “seven heavens,” this view finds no support in the Scriptures.

    When we examine the context, it becomes apparent that the apostle is not referring to the heavens within earth’s atmospheric expanse or to outer space. The apostle wrote: “I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. . . . he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak.”—2 Cor. 12:1-4.

    It therefore appears that the reference to the “third heaven” relates to the spiritual heavens and indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. In this regard, one can note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3, Ezekiel 21:27, John 21:15-17 and Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.

    Caught away to the “third heaven,” the vision-viewer entered “paradise” and heard unutterable words. A key to understanding Paul’s description of the vision is found in the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures that relate to the restoration of God’s ancient people. Throughout many of the prophetic books of the Bible divine promises are found regarding the restoration of Israel from the lands of its exile to its desolated homeland. God would cause that abandoned land to be tilled and sown, to produce richly and to abound with humankind and animalkind; the cities would be rebuilt and inhabited and people would say: “That land yonder which was laid desolate has become like the garden of Eden.”—Ezek. 36:6-11, 29, 30, 33-35; compare Isaiah 51:3; Jeremiah 31:10-12; Ezekiel 34:25-27.

    However, these prophecies also show that paradise conditions related to the people themselves. By faithfulness to God, they could now “sprout” and flourish as “trees of righteousness,” enjoying beautiful spiritual prosperity like a “well-watered garden,” showered by bounteous blessings from God due to having his favor. (Isa. 58:11; 61:3, 11; Jer. 31:12; 32:41) The people of Israel had been God’s vineyard, his planting, but their badness and apostasy from true worship had caused a figurative ‘withering away’ of their spiritual field, even before the literal desolation of their land took place.—Compare Exodus 15:17; Isaiah 5:1-8; Jeremiah 2:21.

    Thus the paradise envisioned by the apostle Paul could refer to a spiritual state among God’s people, as in the case of fleshly Israel. This can be seen from the fact that the Christian congregation was also God’s “field under cultivation,” his spiritual vineyard, rooted in Jesus Christ and bearing fruit to God’s praise. (1 Cor. 3:9; John 15:1-8) As such it had replaced the nation of Israel in God’s favor.—Compare Matthew 21:33-43.

    Paul’s vision, nevertheless, must logically have applied to some future time. An apostasy was due to set in among the Christian congregation, was already working in Paul’s day, and would result in a condition like that of a field oversown with weeds. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Acts 20:29; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; compare Hebrews 6:7, 8.) So, Paul’s paradise vision would not reasonably apply while such was the case. Rather, it would evidently relate to the time of the “harvest season” when the genuine Christians would be gathered by the angelic reapers and would enjoy rich blessings and spiritual prosperity from God.

    The anointed footstep followers of Jesus Christ who are living today are indeed enjoying a spiritual paradise, as can be seen from the spiritual prosperity now evident among them. In fact, the spiritual prosperity today under God’s established kingdom is more glorious than that enjoyed during the apostolic days, the initial period of Christianity. Sharing in today’s spiritual prosperity are the “great crowd” of “other sheep” who look forward to enjoying a literal paradise here on the earth in the near future.—Rev. 21:1-4.

    Just reporting not supporting...third heaven not a new concept for the WTS

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Let me check my notes.

    Okay. According to G.Loesch and the special sauce, Paul probably meant the elevated heavenly government, you know, "MOTHER." He said he was caught away to paradise. According to the WTBTS, paradise can mean an earthly paradise as well as heavenly, and 3 means emphasis. So Paul must have meant

    1) future earthly paradise

    2) spiritual paradise, the Organization

    3) The paradise in heaven.

    So just as the bible predicted the distance from Scranton PA to Hoboken, it also predicted JW.Borg as one of the third heavens/paradise! It just makes sense.

    DD

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Here we go. My notes say "adjusted understanding." Loesch says paradise is all 3. Heaven, Spiritual paradise/ORG, and the future Earthly paradise that is taught in the bible from beginning to end.

    DD

  • sarahsmile
    sarahsmile

    According to the WTBTS, paradise can mean an earthly paradise as well as heavenly,

    Data that is interesting because the 60s and 70s JWs never heard WT describe a heavenly paradise. That would go against, Truly today you will be in paradise.

    Paradise was always earthly.

    The way WT explains things away: It therefore appears that the reference to “the third heaven” indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. Note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3; Ezekiel 21:27; John 21:15-17; Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.

    LOL,now that explains it! Lol! I guess that is a nice way of saying WT does not believe in third heavens, basically the guy was too high!

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    1) future earthly paradise

    2) spiritual paradise, the Organization

    3) The paradise in heaven.

    Paul said third heaven not third paradise.

  • fiddler
    fiddler

    When I was still in I always wondered about that scripture where Paul had his out of body experience. I never understood why he said he was 'boasting' until after I left and read parts of The Book of Enoch where Enoch has the same experience. It occurred to me that Paul could only be boasting to people who had read or had knowledge of this Enochian literature. I wonder if the Book of Enoch was part of his "all scriptures inspired of God"?

    I mentioned that scripture to my jdub son in law and he thought I was lying or making something up. I had to show him the scripture from the NWT. He'd never seen it.

    So wow ~ the GB are going to finally tackle that one! It was always a scripture that was passed over and I only knew of it because of reading on after some other scripture was quoted; got bored often during meetings. Bet they will 'spin it' real good!

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    Considering what Paul said about knowing a man who had that experience 14 years previously, most believe Paul was talking about himself. I'm not so sure this is the case. Makes me wonder if he was talking about John. We know from Revelation that John did have this experience. He was transferred to the heavens. But something else in Revelation leads me to wonder this. At the very beginning of Revelation, John was told this:

    "So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these." - Rev 1:19

    What Paul writes is unusual because he typically had no qualms about talking about himself. But in this instance, he said, "I know a man in union with Christ". Leads me to believe he was talking about someone else. Could he have been talking about John? Could John have had his vision that was written in what we call Revelation many years before and was simply told not to write them down at that time? It's possible, I suppose.

  • problemaddict
    problemaddict

    Thanks everyone and Blondie for the research. I was unaware of the concept of "third heaven" being an older concept. It seems now however from DD's notes, that they have simply moved heaven "downwards" a bit.

    So organizational paradise is a heaven, future earthly paradise is a heaven, and heaven......is a heaven.

    So I was wrong about "superheaven". Thanks for the clarification.

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