by sunny23 40 Replies latest watchtower bible
Yes, delusions of grandeur, and all that. Well, for all we know, the rabbi-like parts are actually the words of a man named Yeshua, and the more grandiose claims were inserted later by his followers.
This has been an informative discussion for me; I see more clearly now how difficult it is for Christians to get a single coherent viewpoint out of the Gospel or the whole NT.
Luke 6 and John 5 certainly make out Jesus to be less of a normative Rabbi and more of a maverick god-man.
One view of John 5:17 that I've seen in JW literature in the past is that Jesus was simply being obedient:
"When criticized for healing on the Sabbath, he said: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” (John 5:17) Jesus was not performing secular work in order to enrich himself. Rather, he was doing the will of God. Just as the Levites were allowed to continue their sacred service on the Sabbath, Jesus could rightfully carry out his God-assigned duties as the Messiah without violating God’s Law." (W95 3/1 p. 7)
"Along with his heavenly Father Jehovah, Jesus is a worker. “My Father has kept working until now,” he said, “and I keep working.” (John 5:17) He does the work Jehovah assigned to him" (W82 8/1 p. 15)
These explanations don't cast Jesus as above the Law, or having the authority to decide for himself when the sabbath should be set aside. Laws cant' be set aside based on personal reasoning and from Gehazi to Saul, every person who did so came to a bad end. But if there is a clear and direct conflict between two commandments, then a decision must be made, which is exactly rubric under which Rabbis decide halachic questions and why the Law is not "Broken" simply because one requirment takes precedence over another.
The "Lord of the sabbath" comment is weird. JW literature sometimes claims that this was a direct allusion to the millenial reign during which Christ will perform healing on a much larger scale. (e.g. The subheading under Sabbath Day in the Insight On The Scriptures)
After re-reading all the comments I guess I should reword the questionaire. I believe it still holds a strong pro-transfusion argument to JW's..
Blood Transfusions:
Back in ancient times , the OT, were the 10 commandments important?
Yes
Was there any blood law mentioned in them?
No
The Sabbath and keeping it was one of the 10 commandments right?
Yes
Breaking that commandment meant severe punishment, death, a greater punishment than breaking a so called blood law?
Yes
Exodus 31:14-15 "You shall keep the Sabbath, for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to DEATH: for whosoever does ANY work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to DEATH."
Did people get executed for eating blood in the bible?
No
Is it safe to say that keeping to the ten commandments was just as important as a law on blood?
Yes
Did Jesus ever show exemptions from the God instituted Sabbath law?
Yes
How did he?
Matthew 12:1-13
Jesus said: "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep?Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days. Then said he to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."
So Jesus taught that the preservation of life supersedes scriptural law?
Yes
Can a blood transfusion save a life?
Yes
Did they have the capabilities to use blood to save lives in the bible?
No
Is saving a human life more important than restoring a human hand?
Yes
Are humans more important that Sheep?
No...JK
I don't think Jesus of the gospels ever broke the sabbath.
He explicity asserted that doing good on the sabbath was NOT against the Law.
Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days
He refused to be bound by the unreasonable application of the Law but he taught his followers to observe every jot and tittle of the Law as actually written.
BUT. He did pick fault with those who over interpreted the law and embellished it. And he did show the value of life. And he did not mind going against the man made sections of the law, as evidenced by healing the man on the sabbath.
Breaking that commandment meant severe punishment, death, a greater punishment than breaking a so called blood law?
No. Eating blood or unbled meat of an animal that had been killed resulted in the person being "cut-off". This is likely a reference to capital punishment.
Did people get executed for eating blood in the bible?
Yes absolutely they did.
There was no "10 commands". That is an anachronism. There are at least 3 posisble versions of the "10" in the OT which contain such gems as not boiling a kid in it's mother's milk.
I think the key to reasoning with a JW about blood is to start with some common ground.
You will not convince them that it is ok to break god's law sometimes. To them that is a temptation to disloyalty.
Concede that consuming blood of an animal whose life had been taken was always wrong and carried a death penalty. You can even concede that the same law is binding on christians if it helps.
However the blood of an animal found "already dead" was not sacred and could be eaten with impunity.
Blood was only sacred in so far as it represented the value of a life that had been taken. The key text is Leviticus 11:39,40 - If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.
In the case of a blood transfusion no life was sacrificed to donate the blood and therefore it is not convered by the bible's prohibition.
I am doomed under the Ten Commandments, as my neighbour has a gorgeous ASS - sorry it's revised now DONKEY - and I covet it every time I get a babe-o-rama view.
I second everything that cofty said.
I don't think Jesus of the gospels ever broke the sabbath.
Thats why I re-worded it to say "showed exemptions from the law"
No. Eating blood or unbled meat of an animal that had been killed resulted in the person being "cut-off". This is likely a reference to capital punishment.
Did people get executed for eating blood in the bible?
Yes absolutely they did.
It says that those who eat blood will be "cut off from his people." Thought that meant exiled. Maybe not. And when did someone get executed in the bible for eating blood? I can't find it. BTW I'm just trying to understand and refine my ability to reason against the blood issue with a JW. I have heard the details of Jewish law concerning the sacredness of blood and the reasoning behind why orothodox Jews get blood transfusions. The fact it comes from live donors is key and of course Pikuach Nefesh
