Darius the Son of Ahashuerus?

by opusdei1972 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    I am trying to write a logical explanation of the book of Daniel. For instance, I now know that Daniel was wrong about the son of Nebuchadnezzar, because Belshazzar was not Nebuchadnezzar's son. Also, Daniel wrote:

    In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus, by birth a Mede, who became king over the realm of the Chaldeans in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of Yahweh to the prophet Jeremiah, must be fulfilled for the devastation of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. (Daniel 9:1)

    Who was this Ahasuerus? Did Daniel invent this man?

  • Terry
    Terry

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/967-ahasuerus

    http://hebrewbible.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/who-was-the-real-ahasuerus/

    Since thousands of people with credentials in academia have trod this ground before you--

    why waste your time.

    A layman is a layman is a layman.

    Most conspiracy theories are produced by naive laymen without training.

    Crackpot religions are started by laymen.

    Why not take college courses in Historical methodology before you go down this path?

    Just curious.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    I think who it was that wrote Daniel just didnt know his history very well. Since your working of this book you may also want to research the new parts of daniel that have been found. According to my sources these added writings to the book and the book of Macabees show that Daniel has nothing to do with the coming of the messiah or anything for our time.

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    Hi Terry:

    Thank you for answer me.

    This is for myself or for a future post in my blog. I have a Ph.D in physics, but not in history. This is why I am doing my homework in studying the Bible with secular data. As an ex-witness I believed that the Bible told accurate history, at least. But I am finding many contradictions. So, I want to write the logical and documented answers of my questions so as to record them. In time, I could forget it. For instance, I am now convinced that the book of Daniel is a forgery.

    Furthermore, my son could need answers about religion, so I want to help him but not with theological fallacies. In the past I convinced my wife that the Watchtower was the channel of God, but know I am deprograming my family. I am succesfuly convincing them that Borg and the Bible are both wrong in many issues.

    Regards,

    opusdei1972

  • Terry
    Terry

    Opusdei: As an ex-witness I believed that the Bible told accurate history

    Hey--I completely understand because I have been there, standing in your shoes.

    Since I'm older, I got there first--but, others got there before me :)

    I admire a curious seeker who wants proof.

    But--may I tell you something which will really help you?

    What is Confirmation Bias?the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories. I urge you to watch this brief interview with a man who is one of the top scholars.

    He tells how he started off and where he ended up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeFdhyuVyzI

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    Crazyguy : I noticed that there are more pages defending the historicity of some Bible passages than pages showing more logical arguments......About Daniel, it seems that the new world for him would be in the second century before Christ. But he deceived us by telling us that an angel told him that the vision was for the future.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I'm just speaking for myself when I say this. We want significance in our lives. We do NOT want a humdrum life.

    We want happiness, sure--but, not ordinary happiness. We want UNENDING happiness.

    Is that greedy or just pretty smart :)?

    Anyway . . .

    I think if we have hung EVERYTHING on the Bible being the inerrant word of a living, Almighty God--we sure aren't going

    to give up quietly without trying everything possible to maintain that foundation.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Opus Dei 1972,

    This has been a topic related to something that struck me like a lightning bolt several years ago. My background is not JW, but I was confronted with it in a relationship that fell apart. Before that I was not the least curious about these things. ...

    Yes, Daniel had quite an impressive resume, didn't he. He worked for Darius the Son of Ahashuerus in chapter 9. Also, he saw service just before the arrival of Darius the Mede... And there was Nebuchadnezzar. But definitely NOT Nabonidus. As for Nabonidus's son, he always thought he was Nebuchadnezzar's and also that he was king.

    If you look for historical validation of Daniel, then may I suggest that you check Thucydides or Herodotus. In the first book of Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War, in introduction the author writes that "the battle of Marathon was fought between the Athenians and Medes".

    [In this case, it was not in the Penguine classic. Edited out. Try, for example, Strassler, the Landmark Thucydides. Chapter 1, paragraph 18. Or better yet, go to the original Greek. You don't have to be fluent to spot it.]

    Who was king? Darius, Darius the First. From whence? From Persia. He had his own version of Mount Rushmore sculpted above a highway there declaring that he was a Persian and gave an account of his exploits. What was the year of Marathon? 490 BC. A consistent error or eccentricity, Thucydides in literal translation speaks of Persians as Medes about 50 times.

    Nobody has ever given me an account of how any Mede got the name Darius or what it would mean.

    But there were other Dariuses in the Persian line. In my Bible's index of persons, when it comes to Ahasuerus, it says, "See Xerxes." Xerxes was also called out by Greek historians (Herodotus) as a Mede in his account of the subsequent 2nd Persian invasion of Greece by Darius's successor. That's the same guy that's mentioned in Ezra chapters 4: 6-8. So let's see, when did this transpire? In the late 6th century AFTER the exiles have returned to Jerusalem?

    If you look up Darius II, according to sources he reigned after Artexerxes I who was his father. Darius II reigned from 423-405 BC. Artaxerxes died in 424 on Christmas, but it wasn't celebrated back then. And another son Xerxes II followed him, only reigning for a month and half. Then comes Darius II. So I suspect that the notes in my New Jerusalem Bible have their problems too, but they are nothing compared to the problems of this book which resides among Writings and not among Prophets.

    The reign of the third Darius was ended about a century later by Alexander the Macedonian, adopted for different reasons by another nationality - the Greeks as the Great.

    The third Darius is about the only one that the text of Daniel does not seem to connect its protagonist with.

    My conclusion is that the author(s) of Daniel got most of their ancient history via the filter of the Greek occupation of Judah in the second century. And when you hold up the claims made in Daniel to the same light as what others in the ancient world were writing, it does not reflect well on this work as an authoritative document about much outside of the 2nd century Seleucid occupation and tyranny of Antiochus IV. In fact its ideas about Babylon and Persia are largely incoherent and inconsistent myths written arbitrarily in 1st and 3rd person, Hebrew and Aramaic.

    Daniel also appears to have signed up with Nebuchadnezzar even before the Babylonian King had a chance to level Jerusalem, whether it was 587 BC or 607 BC. So as a national hero he strikes me a little like Marshall Petain...

    That's an awful foundation on which Protestant sects have rested much apocalyptic theology.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    Daniel is listed in the writings and not the prophets because a jewish prophet was someone who spoke the word of God to the people. Daniel spoke to the king not the people. It is not until the end times that daniel comes into his inheretance...He will arise about the same time as there is "one on this side of the riverbank and another on that side of the riverbank"[tigris]

    At that time the words of daniel to the "king of babylon" will find their mark and daniel will begin to speak to his people.

    love michelle

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    Terry: Bart Ehrman is a sincere scholar. I have read some portions of his books and I think he is right in many issues, though we can't know exactly many details of the first century. But I agree with him that the Gospels were written not to teach accurate history, but the authors had a theological agenda for their christian comunities. I have taken notes for the Gospels, but I am firstly writing about the Old Testament, in which we have even more unhistorical accounts.

    English is not my native language, so I am writing these topics in Spanish. In Spanish there are a few web pages exposing the Bible contradictions. This is why I think I have to do my contribution by compiling good arguments. I was reading this forum, and I found very interesting researchings, like those of Leolaia, AlanF, etc.

    I have to clarify that I am not an atheist, but I am not worried about defending the Bible as witnesses and evangelicals do. I just want to expose contradictions, and facing the contradictions without blindness can help us to be free and think by themselves.

    For many years I believed that the Watchtower was the Channel of God because I thought this organization had the true interpretation of Daniel prophecies. I lost my friends and many things for following these stupid guys of the governing body. However , now I understand that we don't need to read Carl Olof to see that 1914 is wrong. We have an easier way by understanding that Daniel is a forgery that was produced to give confort to the Jews who were facing the Antiocus' persecution.

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