I never realized that Hitler's persecution of the Witnesses was worse than that of the Jews (page 4)

AudeSapere

Marking.

(Thanks for who contributed background info - especially Terry!)

-Aude.

It is also crucial to say that many JW were arrested and executed by Stalin and his scoogies in Eastern Europe. In 1951 about 109 JW were arrested in Czechoslovakia and sent to life in prison or labor camp where death was expected. Additonal arrests were in 1953, 1956-1957. However, after WWII some JW were charged with a treason by complience with Nazis in Czechoslovakia for being too docile during the war. There were cases where JW were accused of cooperation with Gestapo. Some JW who were employed as barbers in camps were brougth after 1945 infront of revolutionary and people's tribunal. They shaved nazi officials with razor without cutting anyone throat. They defended [successfully] that they do not kill even their enemies due strong religious conviction. Nonetheless, colaboration between some JW and and nazi/communist regime is known and I know some JWs who are listed as confidents (some names did shocked me and I have known these people for years). I was thinking for a while to request from the Department of Justice in Czech Republic and in Institute of Totalitarian studies in Prague a list of people who collaborated both with Nazis and Commies and were JW. These information are available per request. Not all in human and JW world is white and black.

kaik

Band on the run, I will not tell you for Germany before WWII, but in Czechoslovakia which had 25% of German population until 1946, the JW were among German population were concentrated in three areas in the northern Bohemia and Moravia. The first JWs there were Germans since 1910's. JWs among German population recruited among miners and industrial workers, and cities labor class. That was the case before 1939. Germany like Czechoslovakia and Austria shared similar demographic structure before 1939 with industrial areas, large secular cities, and deeply religious countryside. JW like other modern cult -SDA- would start with the captial and large cities and than spread into industrial heartland like Silesia, Saxony and Rhur where people before WWII were less religious. Many JW among German speakers into former Austria empire came from Saxony. I think Magdeburg was their main HQ for entire Germany.

prologos

There was a recent wt article about smuggling of literature * through the "RIesengebirge" between the old german-checz borders.

The 25 % german populations in eastern Europe, were all killed, expelled in the reat ethnic cleansing predicted.

* all literature with content that wt would now

disawow.

kaik

25% of Germans killed is not true. Various studies by Red Cross after WWII, British occupational government in Bavaria, by Czech-German assocations, and universities studies like done by Silesian university, number of death was between 15-18 thousands people, from which 5500 were done by violent means. Czech-Saxony borders were rather always porous, even during communist time because they were part of the same political block. I traveled that area during the communist time back and forth back in the 1970's and 1980's.

prologos

kalk, of the millions, the minorities that were removed from Jugoslavia, Chechi a morava, russia, the Ukraine, poland, the baltics, expelled and in many case killed. not 25 % total of the perhaps, but often they were, - as you said 25% of the population.*

Did not one group try to tke Praha to court for expelling it's own citizens?

anyway, Jws smuggling redundant literature acoss borders, Jws arguing Rutherford's erroneous Romans 13 ruling in the Concentration camps.

still, what a terrible fate to have been jewish in those areas. a thousandfold worse.

* often a significant part: Praha: Johan Kepler, Albert Einstein. Breslau Max Born, Kaliningrad, Emanuel Kant. among others.

kaik

Prologos, WWI loses for former Czechoslovakia in Great War was 480,000 which were 1/3 of all military loses for entire Austria-Hungary. That was the last major war in which Czech, Slovak, and German population was drafted in battlefield. I use it as a comparision to WWII. Czechoslovakia surrendered to Germany in 1939 without fight, its military loses were 20,000 from armies in exile. The total death toll in WWII was set at 360,000 people which included 240,000 Jews. Prewar Czechoslovakia had 13.6 million. 25% of your estimate would estimate 3.4 million of people, which is not true and impossible. The comparison to Yugoslavia, Poland are irrevelant. Slovakia was a German ally and did not experienced a war until August 28, 1944 when it was attacked by Germany as last country in Europe. Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia experienced a brutal dictatorship but level of oppression was nowhere close to Eastern Europe. Germans believed that Czechs were Slavicized Germans and intermarriage between these two nations continued through war something impossible in Poland and anywhere east of Protectorate. Lidice massacre is well know and number of executed people were published daily and easy obtainable by census. Another 25,000 died by allied bombing (both of my parents survived air raides) and another 15000 died during combat operations at the end of the WWII in May. 1600-2500 was in Prague alone during last five days known as Prague Uprising. Population loses outside Holocaust was 115,000-135,000. The postwar expulsion affected 2.2 millions of Germans. My grandmother was Austrian German, she was not expelled, lived happily there until she died 90 years old. My father lived in Sudetenland in 1945-1947 where civil war killed in around 18000 people.

Germans and thousands other constantly tries to revive the past injustice in the court. Sudeten Germans after 1939 were not Czech or Slovak citizen, they were German. Even wife of R. Heydrich Lina sued Czechoslovak and British government for killing her husband. Heydrich was a monster, 3rd highest ranking official of 3rd Reich, who initiated holocaust, but was assassinated by Czech undergound in 1942. Her interview is on youtube. Her son continues to sue Czech government for the father's death. Either way I do not know any country in Europe that lost 1/4 of population except Poland. Even Yugoslav losses were established to 1.1 million from postwar guess of 1.7 million from country that had estimated 15 millions before the war.

JW from Germany immigrated to Prague after 1933 and supplied Germany from there. Czechoslovakia was the only democracy there until 1939 where JW could without problem supply Germany. Switzerland played the role as well, but I have seen JW publications before war published both in Czech and German language from Czechoslovakia like The Harp of God. After the war various revolutionary tribunals were set up by people's court to deal with WWII crimes and collaboration, known as a retribution courts. They did accussed JWs in Czechoslovakia for being too docile with Nazis. None of them were proved, and I am not aware that anyone was ever charged and condemned. But these accusations were there. However, during communism JWs did collaborate with the regime and I have seen names of several elders in the list of the informers (their names, address, dob is there so I know who they are). When and If I am in CZ again and I have a time, I can ask courts for records because they are available per request. WWII records should be obtainable too, as well as are postwar summary courts records between 1945-1948 when communist usurped the control.

Breslau or Wroclaw is in Silesia and was part Prussia and Germany from 1742 till 1945. So did Konigsberg. Neither have anything to do with present Czech Republic. In the past there were controlled by Czech Kings is some point like Charles IV or Ottokar II. But this was in medieval times.

prologos

Kalk, thank you for those insights. I am sorry if I used your 25% figure loosely.

Can it not be said that what happened between national groups during that time, was far worse than the fate of the typical JW in Europe ?.

Nothing on the scale of Treblinka or Birkenau with their jewish tragedies has happened to the JWs.

The Birkenau crematoria were photographed by US bombers as they destroyed strategic targets nearby. They could have disrupted the slaughter too.

Had passive resistance in JW-fashion be more widespread, across the board among the other religions, where would Hitler have gotten his troops? workers?

donny

I remember a Watchtower article written by late Governing Body memeber Martin Poetzinger where he stated the reason that the JW deaths were true martyrs compared to the Jewish ones was because the Jews had no choice in the matter, they would die regardless of any action on their part.

However all a JW had to do was renounce the faith and they would be released, so those would remained steadfast and were executed were doing so because they really loved God.

Donny

eyeuse2badub

TY Shirlet for the research. I'll show it ot my sill-in-the-borg wife. She can read it herself in the "spirit directed watchtowers" and see how the org makes up shit to make themselves so special!

just saying

eyeuse2badub

I never realized that Hitler's persecution of the Witnesses was worse than that of the Jews

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