To understand cults we need to start understanding ourselves

by paranoia agent 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • paranoia agent
    paranoia agent

    There are books out there that talk about why it is so difficult to convince someone that they are wrong. Hassan and Singer specifically address destructive cults. Hassan refers to cult members under mind control and Singer under thought reform. They both imply the same thing; there are social psychological factors at play that shapes and controls a person’s reasoning without being perceived by the victim.

    However, when reading these books I always wondered whether Hassam and Singer were being hypocritical. That is Hassan divided two ideologies, one that uses coercive persuasion and the other that respects the individuals views. Singer did the same in her book Cults In Our Midst. Check the link - http://factnet.org/mind-controlbrainwashingthought-reform-exists - scroll all the way down for a good explanation on the differences between cults and religions.

    I agree that there are differences, however I have associated for a while now with other theists and there appears to be similarities. For example there are sociocentric and individualist cultures. Sociocentric places needs to groups and institutions and lesser to the needs of individuals, while individualist cultures places needs on individuals. Cults and political parties like the national socialists, Marxism, and certain countries that practice Islam are all sociocentric, and so are other religions that think as groups whether its protestant, orthodox and catholic. Taking this into account we can make an important point on how the Jehovah’s witnesses base their morals, they are totalitarian, they are sociocentric, they are all for the borg and nothing for the individual. Some religions are more extreme than others. But unlike Hassan\Singer, can we make a distinction between certain sociocentric ideologies?

    Ever since these books have been published a number of peer review articles have been made to expand on this issue on how to convince others that they are wrong. It started with the story abouts the wolf that change its mind. Freud taught the conflicts between the ID\ego\super ego. Festinger expanded with Freud with his scientific theory of cognitive dissonance. Gilovich found how commonly we resort to confirmation bias. Ariely did some socio economic scientific studies on people and found that we are not rational. Tetlock concluded the we persuade ourselves, and there are more, but the point being is that we are irrational.

    There is a cult component yes, but there is also a YOU component that we need to understand. Atheists are not free from this, it doesn’t discriminate, it’s a human thing. It’s sociobiological and environmental. The core problem comes from our reasoning.

    David Hume was the first to find this flaw - reason is and ought only to be the slave of the passion, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.

  • Dis-Member
    Dis-Member

    The most difficult thing in life is to know yourself. ~Thales~

  • Frazzled UBM
    Frazzled UBM

    I very much agree with your premise that we are not as rational as we think we are or indeed we may not be rational at all. I have often put this view forward when arguing with those on here who think they are more rational than others because of their fondness for science and scorn for religion. Still, I do think that rather than individualistic and sociocentric being a dichotomy, that it is more of a spectrum with extremes at the ends and more balance towards the middle and that the WBTS is on the extreme of sociocentric along with authoritarian (fascism, communism, nazism).political movements

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    In my experience and opinion, and in CBT (Psychology), we are all irrational, albeit to varying degrees, and all addicted to our particular worldview (or mindset, or paradigm).

    Of course our worldviews sit on a spectrum ranging from narrow minded to broadminded.

    The more expansive our worldview, the more room to move.

    So allowing ourselves to be challenged can be a good thing.

    Although life and adversity sometimes do it all for us.

    The most compassionate of our species have often been to hell and back...

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    Mentioned this in another thread recently, and it sounds like you might enjoy it. There's a TED talk about being wrong and how people react, etc. Some pretty funny moments peppered in as well.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong

  • Focus
    Focus

    To understand cults we need to start understanding ourselves

    Indeed, yes. Cults are designed based on a shrewd analysis of human frailty. The rest follows...

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

    I was going to put in:

    but I see breakfast of champions already has.

    __

    Focus

    ("Cult crimefighter" Class)

  • AndersonsInfo
    AndersonsInfo

    Wonderful topic.

  • paranoia agent
    paranoia agent

    A metaphor Jonathan Haidt used in his book The Righteous Mind is that the mind is composed of two parts, the elephant (automatic processes - intuition) and the rider [of the elephant] (controlled processes - reasoning). The rider can do little to control or persuade the elephant, and can only think ahead of what the elephant will do. The key here to understand is that intuitionalism comes first before rationalism.

    Recalling Hume, the rider is the servant and the elephant is the master. Elephants can be open to reason when discussions are not hostile, or they will lean away making the rider work frantically to rebut the opponent’s charges.

    JW’s teach that we are hostile, it is no wonder that it’s difficult to convince let alone engage with a jw.

    Thanks OneEyedJoe

  • designs
    designs

    "If a person says one truthful thing to God in his lifetime he is a righteous person" Rabbinic sage

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