Debunking the Bible

by Coded Logic 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Paris

  Fink - thanks for this interesting comparison of details. I will look these up using Gateway online which has dozens of translations which all differ slightly as well.

  Tiger and others- All I am saying is if the purpose of this site is to enlighten people to the life destroying trap of the Watchtower, then people like "Doc-House" (who probably will never own a house or be a doctor) due to the life stifling closed mindedness and isolationist policies of the WT, could be driven back in by this constant stomping on God and the Bible. It will back-fire.

  You will not enlighten him/her you will alienate the very person you seek to enlighten. The deadly seven magic men, writing endless Watchtowers read by people who come here, those daring to seek a way out if possible, even the apologists who really are just testing their own indoctrination, might need a softer approach. Less anger ? The Site mandate seems to be stated in its own headings. It does not say it is a site for atheists to beat up believers, does it ?

  Bible or no Bible, atheists or head chopping Islamic fundamentalist, its all a men hating on other men, suppressing women, grabbing stuff and beating each other up. The Bible claims there is something called Good and Evil. Unseen Spirits or invisible beings. SCIENCE tells us there is unseen forces, Dark Matter, other Dimensions, sounds almost religious, but because its science you respect that. There is too much unknown to pretend you have it all figured out, you don't.

  The starter with these young JW's is to get them to look at the cold , simple facts of the history of their own leaders and the fact they have no "special knowledge" or magical Governing Body that "mediates" for them or any "special relationship" to God/Jehovah/Yaweh. That delusion is number one to topple. ( in my observation )
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  objectivetruth

  Check out these verses bible wascreated

  Psalm 50:9 "I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens," 7“Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify against you. I am God, your God. 8Not for your sacrifice s do I rebuke you; your burnt offerings are continually before me. 9I will not accept a bull from your house or goats from your folds. 10For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. 11I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. 12“If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine. 13Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? 14Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,b and perform your vows to the Most High,
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  objectivetruth

  Paris - Great Points! What you said is True beyond what any one else said.

  Doctrine / Beliefs / Opinions are only beneficial if they Further Tolerance, Compassion and Love.. If they do the opposite, they are simply useless Knowledge. All of the worlds Religions have a core teaching of Love & Helping the Poor..

  It should be our Primary Goak to Nelp the poor that come to this site beaten down, confused, lonely desperate and lost..

  thanks for the comment.
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  Paris

  objective - Psalm 50:9 I think it is conveying some idea of the non - material. In a world that did not know there were invisible worlds under their own feet and in the dirt or a drop of water. This is talking about a life form that does not need them or their animal sacrifices. Today, that seems simplistic to us but profound to the people of those times, the idea was there is something beyond what they know that is not about material everyday ritual and symbolic sacrifice. How would God convey that life is made up of energy and light and protons and atoms and complex beyond their imagination ? How could they be informed that billions of galaxies surrounded them and their own existance was a blink of an eye ?

  If man was left to evolve on their own and to be who they chose to be, then the consequences of their actions and thier choices and interactions with others apparently were left to chance and circumstance. It would be the intervention that was unusual, not the lack of it. Did God intervene ? Was there opposing forces in an unseen universe ? Are we all on our own? Lost out here in the Stars? If we are all on our own, as atheists believe, then all the more reason to band together.
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  yadda yadda 2

  The simplest argument is to accept how silly and irrational it is to believe in all those Bible stories of miracles in the ancient past.

  Look at the evidence of your own eyes and senses and of the real world around you. Notice that there are absolutely no miracles occurring today such as the Bible describes (same with resurrections of the dead, etc), nor has there been for millennia.

  Ever notice how these miracles seem to only happen in the ancient past or are foretold to occur in the distant future, but they never happen now?

  Now take on board the great British Philosopher David Hume's argument against belief in miracles:

  • People are very prone to accept the unusual and incredible, which excite agreeable passions of surprise and wonder.
  • Those with strong religious beliefs are often prepared to give evidence that they know is false, "with the best intentions in the world, for the sake of promoting so holy a cause". [7]
  • People are often too credulous when faced with such witnesses, whose apparent honesty and eloquence (together with the psychological effects of the marvellous described earlier) may overcome normal scepticism.
  • Miracle stories tend to have their origins in "ignorant and barbarous nations" [8] — either elsewhere in the world or in a civilised nation's past. The history of every culture displays a pattern of development from a wealth of supernatural events – "[p]rodigies, omens, oracles, judgements" [6] – which steadily decreases over time, as the culture grows in knowledge and understanding of the world.
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  HowTheBibleWasCreated

  Psalm 50 is exilic and likely from the Jeremiah school. Good find.
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  rebel8

  Welcome, OP.

  Check out evilbible.com.
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  objectivetruth

  yadda yadda - If I understand your reply properly.. You are stating that since certain miracles have not been witnessed for 2,000 years or more, Miracles do not exist?

  You say to look with my own eyes and find miracles.. Fair Enough.

  Here are a few things that my eyes see..

  Child Birth, A Limitless Universe, The earths natural & consistent regeneration of fresh, A human teaching an ape over 1,500 words in sign language, You and Me having this conversation as caring & thinking humans..

  Oh yeah and I can't "see them" but I'll add my eyes to this list of Miracles. Can you honestly argue that Life it Self is less Miraculous than Resurrection of Life?

  As for Hume he was an advocate of inductive reasoning, he was an empiricist, this ultimately led to absurd arguments like this :

  "Though the Being, to whom the miracle is ascribed, be in their case, Almighty, it [i.e., the miracle] does not, upon that account, become a whit more probable; since it is impossible for us to know the attributes or actions of such a Being, otherwise than from the experience of his productions, in the usual course of nature. This still reduces us to repeat observations, and obliges us to compare the instances of the violations of truth in the testimony of men with those of the viola- tion of the laws of nature by miracles, in order to judge which of them is most likely and probable."

  Essentially Hume is saying' If our current understanding of the Laws of Nature do not correspond with a proposed Miracle, it is impossible that a Miracle took place.

  I will admit that I cannot explain Resurrection and the actual Mechanisms that are employed to bring it about. However I take the side of a man named George Campbell when considering miracles..

  Campbell argued that the most important factor in determining the authenticity of testimony of a Miracle is the number of witnesses. Numerous witnesses and no evidence of collusion will supersede all other factors, Large Scale testimony is capable of providing absolute certainty even with the most miraculous event.

  A friend of Humme asked him, what he thought of the Scotish Theologian Campbell's Essay which responded to Hume's essay on Miracles.

  Hume's Response : "The Scotch Theologue has beaten me"
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  yadda yadda 2

  Objectivetruth, you're confusing natural events with miracles. In what way is a conversation between you and me or teaching an ape words a miracle involving suspension of the natural laws of physics? The birth of a baby is not a miracle because it is common. All living things reproduce. This is always what Christians come back with as a defense, and it's silly.

  We don't see dead coming back to life today, we don't see talking snakes, we don't see entire seas parted, nor people dropping dead at their priests feet because they told a fib about how much they donated (Ananias & Sapphira).

  You are confusing hearsay with first-hand eyewitness testimony.

  Where are all these numerous witness accounts of these ancient Bible miracles? None of the gospels are proven to have been written by any eyewitnesses, and they were all written decades after the events, of which we only have copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies and so on.

  Luke said he wasn't an eyewitness. He only reported what others claimed to have seen and heard. Luke collected and put into writing a bunch of oral stories and traditions, drawing on Mark. Matthew and Luke are redactions and embellishments of Mark, which was the original gospel. The gospels are not first-hand eyewitness testimony, they are little stories collected from the oral tradition period and put together in a sort of biography with a theological agenda. Paul never even met or saw Jesus.

  The Scottish Theologian Campbell is probably right when it comes to numerous first-hand eyewitness testimonies that can be recorded about a recent event, eg, holocaust survivors, although there is researc that disputes even that. But the ancient books of the old testament and gospels aren't in that category. They are not first-hand multiple eyewitness accounts. A single statement by Luke that upwards of 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus doesn't prove anything.

  And if Campbell is correct, then UFO and alien visitations must be true beyond a doubt, since thousands of persons claim to have seen and experienced these firsthand. Do you believe in UFO's and alien visitations?
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  objectivetruth

  Yadda yadda -

  Hume's and your method of reasoning are appropriate, in some scenarios however they are limited. They are limited by Humanities current understanding of the Laws of Nature. Another example that Campbell gave was relating to Children..

  He reasoned that Children accept a matter as Truth, when Trusted Family or Friends tell them about it.. There is no way for these children to understand the Natural Laws governing these Truths, but nonetheless they accept them. Then once they are mature enough to understand the Natural Laws that governed things they accepted on Faith, they trust the source even more.

  Likely Campbell got this example from Jesus at Matthew 18:3,4 "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

  Fair enough on your response to Every Day miracles, I agree they are not the same.

  I do not Believe in Aliens but I do Beleive in UFO's.. If an object is Unidentified and it is Flying.. It certainly is a UFO, this is a perfect example..

  There have been UFO sitings over China (Edited) , 100's of people were eye witnesses.. An airport was shut down for an hour or more because of the Unidentified Object.. In my perspective and Campbell's this is Undeniable Proof that there indeed was a UFO flying over an airport.

  http://youtu.be/vtlHQLzGlyc

  Like a child I accept some thing like this as a fact, however I do not know what the Object was, and I do not know who Piloted it, or even if it was Piloted.. I just don't know.

  Your right about the Untrustworthy nature of certain Scriptures, and personaly I do not accept all of the Miracles in the bible as they have been transmitted, and as they are commonly understood.. Does this mean that I reject all possibilities of Miracles or all Biblical miracles? Definetely not.

  Lets consider one "Miracle" that is in my view more challenging to grasp from a Natural Laws standpoint than Resurrection.

  This Miracle is For-Knowledge / Prophecy.. Matthew 24:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." - Jesus predicts the Destruction of the Temple.. You and I both know this prophecy doesn't hold weight in the mind of a Critic, seeing that a critic can simply state that Matthew was written post fulfillment.

  But Jesus did not personaly Prophecy this, he was referencing Daniel 9:26 " an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." - Daniel was written well before the Destruction of Jerusalem, and the cutting off of Jesus.

  What is your explanation to show that this was not a Miracle?