I got asked THE QUESTION !! (page 4)

Apognophos

They'll give up their appointment over the rank and file when you pry it from their cold, dead hands

Paris

Well, when you realize that "Jehovah" IS the organization by Oubliette

Your first premise is false. Jehovah is NOT the "organization" even they do not believe that. They believe the organization is necessary to approach God and they believe Jehovah is God. So the organization and the GB in particular are held up as a Mediator.

The organization followers. believes the organization itself, to be a conduit a vehicle, a passage, a gateway, a sole channel, to access Jehovah, a path that is exclusive and the only way to God himself.

The GB or FDS claim to be the WAY to access God and they claim to hold an exclusive positipon of being put in charge of all spiritual matters on earth and also claim to be the only mediator by which anyone can approach God.

That is blasphemy and false doctrine, arrogance and it is idolatry to accept the so-called FDS as being who they claim to be. There is no scriptural spport for this "system" of worship as practiced by the WT. Its an anti-Christ Cult.

OneEyedJoe

Paris - you're correct in how you describe official stance of the WTS. What Oubilette was describing is the functional doctrine. Since Jehovah isn't known for telling folks what to do directly, the GB has set themselves up doctrinally as his mouthpeice. Since you'll agree that this doctrine is false, and they are not actually speaking for Jehovah, you'll have to agree that the GB is acting on their own as if they were Jehovah.

The other bit about the way the WT consistently describes "Jehovah's earthly organization" or "Jehovah and his organization" explains how the WT creates a tacit mental link that eventually (functionally) becomes Jehovah=GB.

Old Goat

"Do I believe that Jehovah directs his organizaiton? Of course I do. The governing body and elders are imperfect men. If God gives them authority it is scripturally limited, as you should know. I look to God not men. Do you look to men?"

Oubliette

OneEyedJoe, thanks for elucidating my commentary for Paris.

I think it's hard for people that still actually believe in God to see how the deliberate conflation of the terms "Jehovah" and "his organization" is a technique of manipulation.

Phizzy

You are spot on Oub, I cannot count the number of times I have been told I have "left jehovah".

How could JW's know whether I have or not ? Only by conflating their Org with Jah in their minds, and sadly, their hearts.

Vidiot

A "loyalty oath" in all but name only.

Terry - "I would say, 'Are you asking me to PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE to the ORGANIZATION?'"

I like that angle; it very neatly lobs the ball back to their side of the net.

stuckinarut2

I have just revived this thread, as I missed it the first time!

This account could have been an exact copy of my recent circumstances!

This sort of 'witch-hunt' manipulation is being done more and more by elders nowdays! In my case they even got the CO involved to corner me.

The best advice I have is, if you do not want excessive stress and hassles in your life, avoid the conversation at all costs. Do not be railroaded into these "chats" especially if there is more than one elder present.

You will NEVER win, or influence their thinking. It is a guaranteed "lose-lose" situation...

Oubliette

Best response ever: "Why do YOU ask? Are YOU having doubts?"

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

"Jack, it is always important to remember that the brothers are imperfect."

I love, love, love to hear that phrase. As soon as it's been tossed on the table, I play that trump card in every future conversation. "The brothers are imperfect." Say that to me once, and I'll repeat it back to you a thousand times."

Elder Drone: "Billy, don't you agree that Jehovah is directing his organization right here on earth through his FDS, the governing body, and the elders?"

Billy: "Like you said, the elders and the GB are imperfect men. I've made a lot of decisions based on things they said back when I was a teenager and was sure that I'd never graduate high school. And I made decisions based on WT articles back in the 1980s that really haunt me. Decisions I would have made differently if I would have realized that they were imperfect men. But, I guess you're right. I was just too trusting. Thanks for taking the time to reason with me on the reality that these representatives of god are imperfect men. I suppose it helps me to be more understanding when the local elders do something less than perfect and to be more understanding when new articles come out that kick the armageddon can another 10 or 15 years down the road."

And I'll quote them to others.

"Like Br. Drone reminded me the other day, "the brothers are imperfect." So we shouldn't be surprised that this WT is different than what we used to believe. And the brothers will continue to be imperfect until we're all perfect, so we don't have to get too attached to what's in this article, because it will probably change again before armageddon. In fact, it may change several times."

I got asked THE QUESTION !!

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