The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Perry

  Just had a two hour conversation with my father. He is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of God as a member of the 'great crowd'. He did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous. And, he believes he will acheive a righteous standing only after one thousand years of trying to be good under the millenium reign where mankind will undergo a sort of re-education program.

  But the problem is that you have to FIRST be declared righteous to get in:

  Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6: 9 NWT

  So the problem that JWs have is that they must first be declared righteous in order to enter the millenium reign. However according to their doctrine, they aren't declared righteous until after the final test at the END of the thousand years when Satan is let loose to deceive one last time. So they have an impossible Catch 22 situation.

  I then took him over to Revelation 7 where the NWT reads:

  “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

  The white robes signify the RIGHTEOUS STANDING of the great tribulation survivors; and the instrument of their justification is the "blood of the lamb".

  I then showed him Mt. 26:27,28 in his NWT:

  And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

  Clearly the new covenant is for the forgiveness of sins. But JW's think they can enter the kingom millenium without membership in this covenant and the righteous standing that goes along with it, even though 1 Cor. 6: 9 says you can't.

  The bottom line is that my father is perfectly willing to keep trying to be good for a thousand more years rather than accepting the free gift now and thus getting declared righteous now and saving himself one thousand years worth of trouble! This is in addition to the impossibility of their great crowd doctrine.

  Please pray for the salvation of my mom and dad.

  - Perry
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  Band on the Run

  I don't know what Protestant and RC churches teach about the one thousand year reign. When I was growing up, it seemed to me that we never were safe. JAH was always testing us. We never had a rest. Revelation is not cited by mainstream denominations. Even nonJWs are scared by it or find it absurd. There appears to be no concept of grace with the Witnesses. Also, in my day only members of the remnant was very old. I felt Armageddon would come any second when my remnant gf died. There was a scandal in my KH b.c the overseer, a recent convert in his 30s took the emblems. He hated black people and was always calling Bethel to be reassigned. Someone called Bethel so he would be removed. We were shocked when Bethel took his side. The understanding that someone already in heaven had failed to be faithful. You are not safe at Jesus' throne. The Bible is so beautiful im most places. How do people get drawn to the scary. My Jesus will zap your Jesus.
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  Listener

  Good on you for trying to show this to your father, the teaching makes no sense and they are blind to it.
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  Wasanelder Once

  As I was taught, the other sheep are declared righteous for survival. They are declared righteous for life later at the end of the 1000 years. The Prophets of old had a measure of Jesus sacrifice given them in advance in order to serve Jehovah acceptably. It was that sure a thing he would prevail that the sacrifice was considered already done. That's what I was always taught. SUch BS.
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  Viviane

  Please pray for the salvation of my mom and dad.

  I hope bothof you realize what a crock your imaginary friends are and how awful your belief in them makes you. Only then will you have the opportunity to be a decent person not praying for the deaths of billions.
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  Crazyguy

  Hebrews 9 I believe also states thats with out his blood and being in the covenant there is no forgiveness of sins. Jesus also told Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of god, he said it 3 times. Its a good thing its just a book the bible because based on what it says no JW would ever get into the kingdom, for they have rejected Christs, his blood and the covenant.
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  Fernando

  Hey Perry, I wonder what your father's thoughts would be on "imputed righteousness", although reading up on this in the Watchtower library introduces one to the convoluted morass of the Watchtower two class system.

  *** w74 10/1 p. 599 par. 21 Settling the Issue of Ownership ***
  The righteousness that God imputes to one through one’s faith in and acceptance of Christ’s ransom sacrifice is spoken of as a “free gift.” (Rom. 5:15-17; 6:23)
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  Perry

  Thanks for the quote Fernando. I don't know if that would have helped. I don't think he wants a free gift. It sounds like he really wants to work a thousand years for it.

  I doctored this page out of a watchtower some time ago to illustrate the insanity of the Watchtower writers. Notice how the caption next to the picture inset at the top says one thing, and the first sentence on paragraph 20 says the opposite! This one page captures the "convoluted morass of the Watchtower two class system" like no other that I have found:

  http://bibleready.org/uploads/WT_6-15-2011_PG_15_Rebuttal_Version.pdf (Save to your own computer if you wish)

  I was exhausted after the conversation, and very sad. My father kept repeating that I wasn't able to get the "big picture".

  Thanks for the support; thank you very, very much.

  Crazy Guy,

  Jesus also told Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of god, he said it 3 times.

  I didn't know that it was three times. That is amazing. I may use that in the future. I can't think of another instance where Jesus repeated something 3 times. Thank you.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Scripturally speaking you are absolutely correct Perry.
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  Perry

  Yep, there it is - three times

  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3