Did Snakes have Legs? Yes/No

by Thirdson 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    I managed to find a piece I wrote last year and subsequently lost. Thanks to the archiving efforts of a very good person I have managed to get it back. This is it:

    Thinking about some posts here recently regarding the Genesis account of the fall of man, I recalled a conversation with a friend a few years back. He told me that once snakes had legs and that after the events in Eden, snakes lost their legs and were forever destined to legless locomotion. He said he read it in the Watchtower. My initial reply was “I think the Society has changed its view of the Genesis account and views the curse on snakes as symbolic. Besides there are snakes with legs even today.” I did some research on the Watchtower’s statements and yes, my friend was right. Back in 1964 there was a statement to this effect:

    But for the symbolic application of this judgment upon the wicked spirit creature who became Satan to have any force there must be a fulfillment of it in the literal serpent, which has come to symbolize Satan. It, therefore, is reasonable to conclude that before God cursed it the serpent possessed legs that elevated it above the ground. As he had the power to create the serpent in the first place, God had the power to transform its body so that it ceased to have legs and was able to move about on its belly.
    Watchtower June 1, 1964

    However, I found later statements from the Society indicating that snakes were the result of marvelous design and make no mention of being four-legged creatures prior to the events in Eden. I passed this information on to my friend and he was content (at least I think he was) with my answer.

    Note: In my comment about snakes having legs, some members of the Python and Boa family retain diminutive hind legs. Also, a few members of the sub-order of squamata called amphisbaenids (they go both ways) have small forelimbs and there are a number of snake-like lizards with tiny limbs (a number of true lizards are totally legless as well) all of which could be termed ‘serpent’ in Biblical language.

    Only later did I realize the problems that exist with a literal interpretation of the Genesis 3 account. The Watchtower in 1964 conceded that the Genesis account shows that snakes had legs at one time. After all, why condemn snakes to legless locomotion if they were already legless? At this time also, the Watchtower society still taught a 6-day creation based on relatively short ‘days’ of a few thousand years. They did not accept the geological timescales of science and had no reason to accept that snakes had been around for a few million years.

    Things changed, and sometime prior to the release of the ‘Creation’ book all reference to creative days of 7000 year lengths were dropped. (Newer versions of the appendix of the NWT changed the time span of Genesis from “46,000 b.c.e…” to “In the beginning to…” ) Geologist’s longer ‘ages’ were accepted and hence snakes in the form we all know and love were now believed to have been on Earth long before man came about.

    The problem then rests with trying to accept the Genesis accounts (note my use of plural) as historic fact and not as an allegorical story or myth. We all know snakes have been around for a long, long time whether you believe in evolution or in the Watchtower’s version of “special creation.” What you can’t escape is that the Genesis account only makes sense if snakes were once four-legged creatures. Why curse a snake to crawl on its belly then? This doesn’t cover the topic of snakes ‘eating dust’ or how the hell they used to talk! Doesn't it just seem like a fanciful story to you?

    It's another problematic area that WTS doctrine will have to get to grips with. They could concede that Genesis is just a story, an interpretation of the creation and like many mainstream churches drop belief in the literal account. God could be behind the creation but the forces used could be accepted as the way science see things. The WTS problem is that Genesis 3, "the apple and fall of man" play an integral role in the big two sided issue of who's in control of the universe. What then is the way out for them?

    Thirdson

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    The WTS problem is that Genesis 3, "the apple and fall of man" play an integral role in the big two sided issue of who's in control of the universe. What then is the way out for them?

    Thirdson

    uhhm, call you an apostate and make the sign of the stauros at you?

  • LDH
    LDH

    I'm not going to pretend I am up on the scientific stuff, so I don't know if snakes had legs.

    But I will hazard a guess and say YES they had legs! You ask, how does Lisa, a non-scientist, know this?

    Because I can point to modern times where there are whole buildings full of snakes with legs. 117, 690, 25. All of these represent serpent filled buildings!

    Dammit I am having a bad day. Somebody medicate me!

  • waiting
    waiting

    hey thirdson,

    and sometime prior to the release of the ‘Creation’ book all reference to creative days of 7000 year lengths were dropped. (Newer versions of the appendix of the NWT changed the time span of Genesis from “46,000 b.c.e…” to “In the beginning to…” ) Geologist’s longer ‘ages’ were accepted

    Are you saying that the WTBTS does not teach that each creative day is 7000 years long and that there were six of them and that we are in the last day of the week in which God rested, of which approx. 6000 years are completed and that the 1000 year reign in Paradise is not the culmination of the last day?

    Where?

    Thanks. As for snakes - I agree with Lisa, lots of them in suits.

    waiting

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    Waiting,

    I think the 7000 year "days" were quietly buried with Freddie Franz. Someone told me that the old school WTS writers have tried to bring back the "days". (Sorta like the generation of 1914 still gets a mention especially if the good JW are using the "Live Forever" book in FS this month.) However, the 7000 year creative days are about as believable as 24 hour creation days and the newer writers shy away from making any more guesses at the length of a "day".

    Thirdson

  • Naeblis
    Naeblis

    I had a pet snake that had two legs. I named him Jimmy and we would run every morning in the hazy glow of the sunrise. He died when he tried to outrun a truck and meandered in its way. Sometimes I still wake up screaming his name.

  • philo
    philo

    Hey Thirdson

    :The WTS problem is that Genesis 3, "the apple and fall of man" play an integral role in the big two sided issue of who's in control of the universe. What then is the way out for them?

    I don't agree that 'the fall' taken as literally true is, or needs to be, integral to WT dogma. Although changing it would need a big fanfare.

    I understand (from a comment in a talk of James Penton's) that this 'judicial' worldview came in with 'Judge' Rutherford, so a return to some of Russell's views would be possible (except without the literal Adam). Also, christian guilt and human imperfection are not difficult ideas to teach, they don't need a historically farcical 'account' of Adam and Eve understood literally, to believe in their guilt. I do not think 'Jewish guilt' always refer back to a human source, neither always does 'christian guilt'.

    It seems to me that many people find they need little justification for feeling guilty. And the other side of the coin, vindictiveness, (a way to manage guilt perhaps) was another fine quality Da Judge had in spades.

    If there is any integral WT teaching, it is: "The Watchtower is The Truth". Everything else is perfectly flexible.

    I posted something about the Adam Eve/creation allegory on H2O a few months back in which I vaguely mentioned vestigial limbs in snakes. It's not researched at all, more of a 'thinking out loud' piece, but as allegories I find the stories interesting. I'll re-post it here.

    philo

  • eyes_opened
    eyes_opened

    Please do Philo Would love to read it!

    Thanks

    Eyes

    "One Persons Heresy Is Anothers Truth"

  • DevilsAdvocate_DA
    DevilsAdvocate_DA

    Thirdson,

    When I was a young lad, my brothers and I did a no no.

    I was raised on a farm.

    That being said, we were not allowed to kill black snakes which were non-poison, because they ate field mouse, which ate grain.

    However, we did the no no. What were we to do with the evidence!

    Easy, we would burn them. We threw them in the brush fire along the fence row. One of the snake fell back out. To our surprise it had four (4) little legs, two in the front section, and two in the back section. Gods truth.

    I told what I saw to my biology teacher later in life. Quess who failed biology. My biology teacher and I did not see to many thing eye to eye, and not because I was one of JW's either.

    Later in life, my wife, who was pioneering back in 1955 with an American Indian Group, was told by the indians that snakes do have legs when you throw them into a fire.

    Just reporting what I have seen and heard.

    DA

  • Simon
    Simon

    We were told that the society doesn't teach that the earth is 6000 / 7000 / 49000 years old anymore (whetever it was).
    However, they have never actually printed anything to that effect that I can recall so surely the latest thing printed is the 'current teaching' ?

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