Now that was no illusion.
Superior landing.
The Illusion of Superiority
by Coded Logic 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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sparrowdown
Sorry what was the question?
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stuckinarut2
I wonder what the motive of the OP is?
Was it to counsel others, or was it spark a debate, or was it to prove a point, or was it just to raise awareness?
hmmm...
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Coded Logic
I wonder what the motive of the OP is? Was it to counsel others, or was it spark a debate, or was it to prove a point, or was it just to raise awareness?
It was mostly out of fustration after witnessing several individuals accuse other people of being "illogical" when, in fact, it was the accusers in the first place who were using fallacious arguements. It's a fundamental problem, the cognitive tools neccissary to form complex logical arguements are the same tools neccissary to understand complex logical arguements. Many of these folks behavior reminded me of the Watchtower calling out other religions for their false prophecies while being completely oblivious to their own false prophecies. It's just a complete inability to exercise any sort of introspection that causes these double standards.
I had also hoped to raise the collective awareness that perhaps we should be a little more considerate (and suspect) of our own cognitive bias. And, perhaps even spark a discussion about Meta Cognition. But perhaps such a conversation would be better suited for another time.
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DJS
CL,
I think I understand what you are trying to accomplish. When I first came on the site a year ago I was amazed at the lack of understanding that many had about simple debating skills. Debates are about two things: facts and the correct interpretation (logic) associated with those facts. Anything that isn't about those two things is a tactic or an irrational, emotional response.
You kinda sorta violated your own OP in your opening sentence, which is possibly why some have responded as they have. Note:
"After reading dozens and dozens of posts and hundreds of comments, it seems to me that a great many people on this forum think that since they figured out TTATT, they must therefore be a highly intelligent and incredibly rational individual."
"Great many" is offensive and an irrational, likely unsupported by the facts, statement. Great many means kinda sorta everyone but you.
And you made definitive 'conclusions' about why the great many are responding as you describe, that they "think that since they figured out TTATT, they must therefore be a highly intelligent and incredibly rational individual." That's an unsupported, likely erroneous, definitive statement. Have you any data which supports such a definitive statement?
So don't be surprised that a 'great many' haven't responded in a touchy feeling manner. Your presentation skills can stand some improvement. I agree with you that a lack of understanding about what constitutes debate and how to logically construct or de-construct an argument need some assistance, but your presentation failed to adequately provide it.
Try again (big smiley face). I'm on your side.
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jgnat
Much more effective would be to call out the behaviour when you see it. I maintain a broad brush was used.
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humbled
Coded Logic,
The problem of knowing the difference between bullshit and solid ground is one that I have had to learn on my own without an education.
It is a dirty process.
Others have found cleaner ways of doing it: there may be enzyme (sp?) markers and other biological metrics that tell the difference between excrement and earth (yes, I now they are related.) But I needed to learn how to measure the differences by picking it up and smelling it. (Note: the process is much easier for me to figure if I see the stuff coming directly out of a verified a**hole!)
I don't have an aptitude for learning forms of logic. I just don't know why. I am fairly intelligent but I have real blank spots in my mind for some forms of argument or debate. However, I was eventually able to find/fight my way out of the cult I was in as have others.
Further sorting out of religious bullshit has been necessary after I was past being a JW. On this board there are discussions that have been relentlessly poundings upon issues. These treads allow us deliberate difficult matters--Good debate must be accessable to all or it is still slight-of-hand to me. Just intellectual bullying. Also there are deep emotional aspects to the subjects that feed into our religious views. The problems we face on leaving the cult are complex.
I am afraid that the board tremendously weakens its hospitality to the wounded who stop in here because--as is often noted--many have not gone to college, have been janitors or house cleaners or window washers or some other low-level worker. We come to the board having found rudimentary ability to discuss things pertaining to TTATT. But Geez! this place is rough and some of us have no money for meds or therapy. We were indoctrinated by a crooked and destructive cult--all in the name of enlightened godly love--I think it is important to take care of each other and not let the board become too elite in its attitudes toward education. Because there are many uneducated people who have become sensitized to anthing that comes out of an perfect a**hole. They are suspicious of the content no matter how logical it seems.
Maeve
p.s. If I ever meta cognition I never knew it.
Also, I don't mean to suggest that ass-holery is restricted by degree of education. We know that equal opportunity extends to all people in that regard.
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Onager
"Your question illustrates my exact point. Instead of exercising a little bit of introspection and wondering “Hey, does that apply to me?” you’re instead worrying about applying it to someone else. This is not how intellectual honesty works."
Coded Logic, how do you know that they didn't ask "does that apply to me?", and *then* ask you?
Your assumption doesn't do you credit.
Here's a site that I found incredibly handy:
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Coded Logic
"Great many" is offensive and an irrational, likely unsupported by the facts, statement. Great many means kinda sorta everyone but you.
-DJS
You are committing the formal logical fallacy of False Equivocation. “Great many” does NOT mean "everyone one but me." Rather, “great many” means a large number of people. You are trying to add things which are not there. There is nothing offensive, irrational, or unsupported about it. Which is more then I can say about your comment.
And you made definitive 'conclusions' about why the great many are responding as you describe, that they "think that since they figured out TTATT, they must therefore be a highly intelligent and incredibly rational individual." That's an unsupported, likely erroneous, definitive statement. Have you any data which supports such a definitive statement?
DJS
Awe that's cute, you're acting like you're going to teach me a lesson. Adorable! Fortunately for me, you're demonstrably wrong. People on this forum continuously call others stupid, idiot, moron, illogical, irrational, and conduct all other manner of ad hominem attacks. And people on this forum also speak at great length about how much smarter they are than all the elders and the MS who are still JWs. And when another member on this website points out a valid problem with their logic - they lash out call the other party calling them “illogical” without taking any consideration of their own position. So yes, my statement is both supported and factual.
Your presentation skills can stand some improvement.
-DJS
I am open to any suggestions you might have.
I am fairly intelligent but I have real blank spots in my mind for some forms of argument or debate.
-humbled
Everyone has mental blind spots. The human brain is not particularly good at logic. That’s why its something we have to learn. Here’s a really good video that is easy to understand and covers some of the basics. The person has a whole series of videos on debate but they’ve got the kind of voice and demeanor that instantly puts you at ease. I recomend his vdeos to everyone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&list=UUc_xdkOBgSYLmXTn-VSQ4uA
I maintain a broad brush was used.
-jgnat
How come?
(I can’t address your concerns if you don’t qualify them)
Coded Logic, how do you know that they didn't ask "does that apply to me?", and *then* ask you?
-Onager
Because the two questions I asked in my OP were, "Do you know what logic is?" and "Have you ever studied logic?" Instead of considering these they instead asked "How do we know you're not suffering from the DK effect?"
Whether or not I'm suffering from the DK effect is Red Herring. It in no way effects the validity of the questions I posed. And, had the person considered their own position and their own understanding of logic - instead of worrying about mine - they would have known that. So no, it wasn't an "assumption" as you so crudely assert. Rather, its what's known as inductive reasoning. Here's a good site you can read up on it:
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/types_reasoning/induction.htm
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bohm
Because the two questions I asked in my OP were, "Do you know what logic is?" and "Have you ever studied logic?" Instead of considering these they instead asked "How do we know you're not suffering from the DK effect?"
Whether or not I'm suffering from the DK effect is Red Herring. It in no way effects the validity of the questions I posed. And, had the person considered their own position and their own understanding of logic - instead of worrying about mine - they would have known that.
Okay. Now the reason I raised the point many on this thread may wonder if you yourself is a victim of the DK effect is that you have so far not provided any tangible information on logic -- such as your definition or any specific examples on what sort of problems you have seen on this thread which could be avoided by a greater knowledge of logic. In other words, you have not at all done anything to indicate you yourself know the first bit about logic except ensuring us that you do and pointed out that many (most? whatever broad brush you wish to paint with this time) are somehow logically deficient. If I was trying to determine if someone was suffering from the DK effect those are the signs I would look for; what signs would you look for? Why did you write: almost everyone who has read this far is currently nodding their heads and thinking to themselves - "Yes, there are a lot of people who are bad at logic on this site." - without even the slightest consideration that they may fall into that catagory.
Now that may very well be the case you are an expert on logic, however if so I do wonder why you choose such a vague way of phrasing your questions. Have I studied logic? What is logic? Do I know what logic is?
I will begin with the first, yes I have studied a bit of logic, so has most other who post on this thread. I am not an expert.
As for the other questions, I am not sure I understand what you ask. However to give what I think may be an answer to at least one question that can be phrased like that, and to not heap upon the lack of tangible input to this thread while decrying it at the same time, I might say a very important aim of logic is the study of consequence of propositions; naturally that does not cover most of the topics you bring up.