Jesus as a Ransom for Humans or not

by fulltimestudent 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    I have not got an answer (theoretical or not) to the above question.

    But the main text book (Introducing the New Testament- Its Literature and Theology - Achtemeier, Green and Thompson) for my study unit (Early Christian Literature and Thought) in the assigned reading for today's Lecture on The Gospel of John, has a section on the ransom. It says (p. 237): One of the few passages that explicitly speaks of Jesus dying for others is Mark 10:45:

    "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    The next paragraph goes on to discuss the last supper and its symbolic meaning in the synoptic gospels. But John's gospel using little material from Mark or the other synoptics, uses quite different language (John 10:11-18);

    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

    14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my lifeonly to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

    So did John, writing this some 6 or 7 decades after events that influenced his life, re-imagine the words he places in Jesus' mouth and most striking of all says almost nothing about the last supper, re-worked by Paul (though he claims it to be "church tradition") into the central ceremony of church life.

    Raymond Brown, a famous Catholic scholar thinks that the reason for the different style of the Gospel of John and the associated letters is that the documents are evidence of a separate community (does he really mean a different church) to the Pauline Church and the Jerusalem church, with the Johannine community placing emphasis on different aspects of the Jesus story.

    Whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry writes:

    Chapter 21 states that the book derives from the testimony of the "disciple whom Jesus loved" and early church tradition identified him as John the Apostle, one of Jesus' Twelve Apostles. The gospel is closely related in style and content to the three surviving Epistles of John such that commentators treat the four books, [1] along with the Book of Revelation, as a single body ofJohannine literature. According to most modern scholars, however, the apostle John was not the author of any of these books. [2]

    Raymond E. Brown has proposed the development of a tradition from which the gospel arose. [3] The discourses seem to be concerned with issues of the church-and-synagogue debate at the time when the Gospel was written. [4] It is notable that, in the gospel, the community appears to define itself primarily in contrast to Judaism, rather than as part of a wider Christian community. [5] Though Christianity started started as a movement within Judaism, Christians and Jews gradually became bitterly opposed.

    Did this community celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal? Just how did they think of themselves in relation to Jesus? Did they speak of Jesus as a ransom for them? How did they connect to the Pauline communities? What was their hope for the future?

    I'll see what they Lecture says.

  • designs
    designs

    Human sacrifice would have been a major reversal of Jewish beliefs going back to Abraham and Isaac (which was the basis for condemnation of human sacrifice in Judaism).

    Paul was pulling some leg and the gospel writers were pulling the other leg.

  • designs
    designs

    The other issues with Jesus Ransom are-

    Is the blood magical

    How are its powers transferable

    Are the powers asserted to be in the blood of Jesus real, a mysterium (in the Greek Orthodox sense) or only Symbolic (East West divide).

  • humbled
    humbled

    Karen King is one of many scholars whose work in the field of early church writing explores the alternate words and worlds left completely out of our indoctination by the prevailing church.

    www.earlychristianwriting.com/gospelmary.html is a site that opens some of the doors to these lost avenues. The Church did no good by suppressing the variant writings.

    It has been thought control from the very beginnings of an organized church.

    I think Jesus didn't promote a ransom only a little spiritual freedom--

  • givemejustalittlemoretime
    givemejustalittlemoretime

    He paid the price for our sins on the cross/stake/tree what ever you want to call it, he took it all for mankind so ALL could be reconciled back to God .Past present and future.

  • prologos
    prologos

    simple question: Why do we need a ransom for Humans?

  • givemejustalittlemoretime
    givemejustalittlemoretime

    SO you can live forever. The unveiling of Christ within ALL is taking place. Mans divine nature has been compressed . THe realization of your divine nature is becoming manifest. So he will dwell in you

  • givemejustalittlemoretime
    givemejustalittlemoretime

    SO you can live forever. The unveiling of Christ within ALL is taking place. Mans divine nature has been compressed . THe realization of your divine nature is becoming manifest. So he will dwell in you

  • designs
    designs

    If you are a child of god why do you need a mediator....

  • givemejustalittlemoretime
    givemejustalittlemoretime

    Because you become a child of God because Israel rejected Messiah so the invitation was extended to the gentiles.So you are spiriiually adopted as a son or daughter of God. The whole plan to reconcile ALL mankind back to himself.Now you can receive the gifts. namely Christ dwelling in you, the Hope of GLory. The unveiling of him in all is taking place so when the fulness of him is manifest in you you will become immortal

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