I have tried that approach and he ignores my questions or answers a different question. I am very aware that when I talk about evolution he switches off and doesn't really engage what I say. He'a already decided in his mind it is untrue so any contrary evidence is autonatically dismissed as lies. He has more as admitted this.
The frustration of talking to a person with a closed mind
by TheStumbler 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jam
The cult mind, Oooh boy. We all can relate.It's magical, someone
can show where rainbows come from, in fact you can make one in
your backyard but your cult mind will tell you, the first
rainbow was created for Noah, a sign from God. The cult
mind will tell you eating blood is the same as a transfusion..
If the GB tell you the sky is yellow, by God it is yellow.
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TheStumbler
@jnat, yeah they play with words for sure. they commonly claim the don't try to convery people. i know they rationalise it but how do they not realise that is being weasely to the point if dishonesty.
one JW recently admitted to me that they shun people who leave on conscience grounds (he tried comparing them to paedophiles - you wouldn't associate with then would you?). I though about asking him to explain the JW.org FAQ where it denies that they shun former members.
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TheStumbler
One interesting thing, the elder told me that every person they have disfellowshipped has fallen into druga, depression or some other trouble and most of them have returned and thanked him for disfellowshiping them. This is possible but I think unlikely. I think he's lying to himself about it.
He became very defensive about the shunning issue. Told me I didn't know anything about it - although didn't say anything I specifically said was wrong. I think he might be dealing with his own doubts about it.
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Coded Logic
If I may add my two cents here, I have found the socratic method to be highly effective in these situations. When they make a claim like, "Evolution is a religion." Ask them why they think that. If they say because its a myth - ask them why they think its a myth. If they say its just a theory - ask them what they think a theory is. Ask them if they accept the scientific theory of gravity, atomic theory, or germ theory? If they say yes they accept those - ask them why they accept those but not evolution. What metric are they using to discrimate between them?
The point is, keep asking questions. Keep the burden of proof on them. They're the ones making the claim that evolution is false. When they start getting fusterated because they can't support their position, then you start in with your facts. It will then becomes apparent to them, even if only on a sub-concious level, that there is a huge difference between their position of just making assertions vs. your position of actually having evidence that supports your claims.
Why do I believe in evolution? Because it is supported by all the life sciences such a developmental and molecular biology, embryology, ontogeny, osteology, paleontology, etc. Because the genetic evidence is overwhelming. Mitochondrial DNA, alone, proves common descent. Endogenous retrovirus’, alone, prove common descent. The Y chromosome, alone, proves common descent. The genetic evidence is undeniable. And it falls perfectly in line with other things like atavisms, physiological and molecular vestiges, biological and chronostratigraphy, geographic speciation, the nested hierarchy of phylogenetics, ring species, transitional fossil forms, and a million and one other things. And because evolution is an applied science, without understanding evolution we couldn’t produce antivirals and antibiotics. That’s why I believe in evolution. Now tell me again self righteous elder, why do you think its false?
Sorry, didn't mean to rant there. Gets me worked up too!
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zeb
Stepright back. Take a huge breath and ask yourself what are you trying to achieve. If you then think "I was just..." then you have lost. Why waste your time and brain power talking to brick walls.
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TheStumbler
That was a good rant. I wish I could be as articulate.
I did did try that approach. For example when he said that evolution was based on lies i asked for a specific example and he just said 'well, it must be'. He doesn't usually like to discuss details and instead jumps from one assertion to the next which I trouble to keep up with. for example, I started explaining ERVS and he ignores it and starts talking about how a tree needs a foundation or it will collapse. I explain how that abiogenesis is seperate from evolution and he starts talking about how theories are unproven. Around it goes in circles.
I asked him to explain what he thought a theory was, he just ignored the question. I pointed out how Einstein's theories have been confirmed as true and are used to calculate the positions of sattelites in GPS. Not even 5 minutes later he starts talking about how evolution is still a theory. It's infuriating.
You can't have a conversation with someone about tgis stuff if they basically ignore evidence and reason.
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TheStumbler
@zeb, I know you are right but that's exactoy what I find so hard to accept. I know I need to deal with it better.
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clarity
"Yeah, I know its pointless. I always fool myself into think if I craft the perfect argument they will see the light. That's what I suppose is so frustrating."
Know exactly how you feel, I have been really
frustrated by this very thing.... their whole watchtowerese
is sooooooooooooocrazy making!
clarity