by lambsbottom 10 Replies latest watchtower bible
Reasoning Book says:
*** rs p. 167 Heaven ***
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.
Anyone have a response to this? WT is trying to debunk thought that of Rev. 7:9,10 is not in heaven.
Wouldn't "great crowd" in heaven also need to be "bought from earth".
Rev. chapter 7 says that the Great crowd is standing before the throne and the greek word "Naos" is used. This word implys the inner sanctuary or court yard. The JW's lie and say this word could also apply to other places out side the inner sactuary but it never does. Also Rev 19:1 is a good read as to what John hears.
Hi
The scriptures make no distinction of New Testament believers when discussing either, the immediate benefits, or the future reward for Christians. All are promised a heavenly reward, "reserved in the heavens" etc....... 2 Cor.5:1,2 . The gospel promises a heavenly hope for all Christians? "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of truth of the gospel." Col.1:5 How can there be two different hopes for believers when Paul affirms; "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling." Eph.4:4
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Here are some questions I would ask JWs re. the great crowd being an earthly as opposed to a heavenly class.
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- When Jesus said in John 14:3 that there were "many" mansions
in His Father's house, wasn't He indicating that there was room
for many people in heaven?
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- Would God prepare many mansions in heaven if there were only a
few people destined to occupy them?
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NOTE: The word "polus", is the Greek word translated both as "great" and "many" or "much" in the KJV. Interestingly enough, "polus" is the identical word translated as "many" (as in many mansions) in John 14, and as "Great" (as in "Great Crowd") in Revelation 7?
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- Were you aware that the Greek word for many as in "many mansions" in John 14 is "polus"?
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- Can you guess what Greek word is used for "great" as in "Great Crowd" in Revelation 7?
NOTE: Verses 14 and 15 of Rev 7, indicate that the "Great Multitude" who are redeemed by the blood, are "BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD" and they "serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE". God's throne and His temple represent "heavenly places". There is as much scriptural evidence to suggest the "Great Multitude" is a heavenly class as there is to suggest that the 144,000 are heaven bound. Their distinction here is purely artificial.
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HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND Rev 7:15?
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For this reason, they are BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD;
and they serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE; and
He who sits on the throne shall spread HIS TABERNACLE
OVER THEM.
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- Where does the text place the "Great Crowd"?
- before throne of God
- in His temple
- under His tabernacle
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- Where is the THRONE of God Located? Rev.4:1-2 (heaven)
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NOTE: Witnesses will insist that "before the throne" means, "in sight of the throne" and not "in heaven".
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- Does "before the throne" always mean "in sight of the throne but not in heaven"?
(JWs will hurry to say no because the 144,000 are also described as being "before the throne". (Rev.14:5)
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CLARIFICATION: Are you saying that when it says the 144,000 are "before the throne", they are in heaven;
but when it says the "Great Crowd" are "before the throne", they are on earth?
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- Do you feel you're being consistent here? How do you distinguish that "before the throne", means the
"Great Company" are not in heaven?
NOTE: Witnesses will say that the 144,000 are on Mount Zion which distinguishes their location as being
heaven (ie. spiritual Mount Zion).
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CLARIFICATION: Are you saying that because the 144,000 are on spiritual "Mount Zion", therefore
the "Great Company" must not be on Mount Zion?
Am I missing something here?
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- Does it say that the "Great Crowd" is not on Mount Zion? (no)
- Do you know that the "Great Crowd" is not on Mount Zion? (yes)
- Well how do you know this if this fact is not in the Word of God?
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- Isn't God's spiritual temple located on spiritual Mt. Zion? (yes)
- Where is the temple mentioned in Revelation located? Rev.11:19
- Where does the text place the "Great Crowd" in reference to the temple? (inside)
- If God's temple is in heaven, and the "Great Crowd" is in the temple, Where are
members of this group located?
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NOTE: Witnesses may say that the word here for temple "naos" often conveys the broad sense
of the entire edifice of the temple including the outer courts.
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- Is the "outer court" mentioned in the text? (its not)
Then how do you know they are in the "outer courts"?
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NOTE: Witnesses speculate rather authoritatively that this particular word for temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, but the "outer courts", which symbolizes an "earthly location". This is absolutely FALSE. There are only two Greek words translated as "temple" in the New Testament (hieron and naos). And of these two words "naos" is used to denote the more central areas of the temple proper rather than outer areas. According to Strongs, "heiron" (2411) is the word that depicts "the entire precincts" which includes the outer courts "whereas "naos" (3845) denotes the central sanctuary of the temple..."
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- How many Greek words are translated as "temple" in the New Testament?
- How many words are used for "temple" in Revelation? (1 naos)
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- Which word (heiron or naos) tends to denote the central sanctuary of the temple rather than the entire edifice?
- Can we check the Greek dictionary of Strong's Concordance on that?
NOTE: If you have access to a Strongs Concordance, check the word hieron 2411 in the Greek dictionary with them.
- Does John use "naos" to denote the outer courts or the central sanctuary? (Note: Rev 11:1,2)
- Can you show me where John uses "naos" to mean "outer courts"?
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NOTE: Witnesses can only back up their salvation theology by adding to the Word of God. They add that the "Great Company" members are not on "Mount Zion"; they are not "born again" or anointed; they are not saved until sometime after Armageddon; they receive none of salvation's immediate benefits and their future rewards are considerably reduced. And all of these "facts" are completely without a scriptural foundation. This is because their salvation theology is founded, not on scripture, but on the "word" of men - men who admittedly make mistakes. Witnesses may try to claim that you are adding to the Word of God by assuming the "Great Crowd" is in heaven. Simply refer them to the direct evidence.
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HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND: Rev 19:1
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After these things I heard a loud Voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN, saying "Hallelujah, the salvation and the glory
and the power belong to our God". Rev.19:1 NWT.
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- According to this verse, where is the "Great Crowd" located?
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NOTE: Witnesses must claim that this is not the same "Great Crowd" as found in Rev.7. Since they believe only 144,000 people are in heaven, these must be angels. But on what basis is this determined? Certainly not scripture!
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- Do you conclude that the "Great Crowd" of Rev.19 is not the "Great Crowd of Revelation 7?
- What "Great Crowd" is mentioned in verse 6 of chapter 19?
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NOTE: Witnesses have identified the "Great Crowd" of Rev.19:6 with that of Revelation 7.
Commenting on Revelation 19:6, the Watchtower Society writes:
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"Yes, those of the "Great Crowd" are also numbered amongthese (worshiping) slaves.
Since 1935 these have been coming out of Babylon...."
Revelation: Its Grand Climax At Hand", 1988. p.274
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- Isn't your interpretive methodology rather arbitrary here?
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CLOSING COMMENT
Since the idea that "in His temple" and "before the throne" means "not in heaven" is not derived from scripture I cannot assume this to be true. Also, since the conclusion that the "Great Company" is not on Mount Zion" is extra-biblical, it would be dangerous for me to add this idea to the text. As you can't scripturally substantiate your claim that the "Great Crowd" of Revelation is not in heaven I cannot accept this belief as authoritative?
Great post Vander, the witnesses can't defend themselves with all this evidence so the say the only thing they can which is that the NT was written for only the anointed. I took them to task on this and when it was done I became one of their anointed before I finally faded.
Thanks y'all.
Yes, I have researched and see that the great crowd are in the inner temple. Thanks JWfacts!
But, the WT throws it for a loop when it says:
Reasoning Book says:
*** rs p. 167 Heaven ***
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.
I have been having some discussions with the Bible Students regarding this and they still gotta get back to me with research. Is the great crowd also "bought" from earth, even though it only mentions that the 144K are?
Reading Rev 7v13-15 without JW specs on it is quite plain that the Great Crowd are in Heaven, in front of the Throne. They are spoken of as having taken advantage of Christ's blood, hence they are "bought" or purchased too.
I am well aware of the WT/JW exegetical gymnastics and jumping through hoops to get around what this scripture plainly says, but that is necessary for them to do to maintain the fiction that the Bible teaches two "Classes" of redeemed Christians.
Just reading the Bible,seeing what it really says, for yourself is a real eyeopener. I did that whilst still a JW, I read Daniel as though I had never read it before, and plainly saw that the whole 1914 doctrine was trash, simply not in the Bible anywhere.
I soon found out that the whole body of teaching that was unique to the WT/JW religion was in error.
“Things come apart so easily when they have been held together with lies.”
―Dorothy Allison
Phizzy:
Thanks.
Where does it say that the "Great Crowd" take advantage of Christ's blood in Revelation? That would help a lot! Thanks
They are wearing white robes made white in the blood of the lamb. Rev.7:14
Thanks!
Another thing to remember is the 144k are apart of the greatcrowd not seperate from it. And since your talking to some people about this then you may want to read rev.5:9-10 and see how in 9 its the greatcrowd that's being talked about and not just the 144k and in the Greek interlinear you'll see that they are not kings and reign as priests on the earth not over it. Show them this and watch their heads explode.
