Did Josephus believe in Jesus as The Christ?

by opusdei1972 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    Here is the questioned Josephus' text :

    “Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”— Josephus —The Complete Works, translated by William Whiston.

    The Watchtower 3/15 2013, says the following about the above text:

    Josephus was not a Christian author. He was a Jewish historian; hence, much of the controversy centers on the designation of Jesus as being “the Christ.” On analysis, Bardet asserted that this title corresponds “in every respect to the Greek usage of employing the [definite] article for the names of people.” Bardet added that from a Judeo-Christian perspective, “not only is the use of the term Christos by Josephus not an impossibility” but it is a clue that “critics have in general been greatly wrong to overlook.”

    Could it be that the text was embellished by a later forger imitating Josephus ’ style? Drawing on historical and textual evidence, Bardet concluded that such an imitation would be almost miraculous. It would require a forger with “a talent for imitation hardly without equal in all antiquity,” in other words, one who was “as Josephan as Josephus .”

    So why all the fuss? Identifying the heart of the problem, Bardet specified that “there are doubts about the Testimonium—in contrast with the majority of ancient texts—simply because questions have been raised about the Testimonium.” He goes on to say that the positions adopted over the centuries are based more on “ulterior motives” than on deductive analysis of the text, which leans heavily in favor of its authenticity................Of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses have even more convincing reason for accepting Jesus as the Christ—that found in the Bible itself.

    I don't think that one would need to be "as Josephan as Josephus" to interpolate the phrase : "AUTOS HN O XRISTOS" (He was the Christ). On the other hand, If I remember well, I knew about another version in a manuscript which says "He was called the Christ". Doesn't it?......Whatever, I can believe that Josephus wrote about James, but, I don't buy that he wrote that Jesus was the Christ.

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    I found that the other version is the 10th-century Arabic version in which the questioned phrase appears as "he was believed to be Christ". So, if we have two different versions, we know that someone was a dishonest scribe like were many in first four centuries.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    It's an interesting subject that will never really end the debates because we just don't know for sure what Josephus thought, knew, believed and what was true about Jesus.

    My personal take is that Josephus wrote so late in the scheme of things about "Jesus" that his writings can no more verify the existence of such a person or at least the truth of such a person anymore than the "Gospels" can.

    It is even possible that Josephus, as a prisoner become slave become advisor to the Roman leaders was a total sellout and did their bidding to save his own hide. There is a theory that the Romans "invented" much of the Jesus history to unite the Jews as pacifists with the rest of the Roman empire. I know even mentioning that will detract from your thread, so it is just one theory. The point is that Josephus did not know Jesus, did not live in Jesus' time, wrote a good 40+ years after that time the same way the writers of the Gospels did.

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    The entire paragraph about Jesus breaks his line of thought... it is an early addition. Josephus never wrote any of that.

    Read the previous paragraphs and the folowing paragraphs in Antiquties.... the Jesus mention was added likely in the third or fourth century ...

    INDEED Joosephus did write about James, the borther of Jesus, who was killed BUT....

    The Jesus mentioned is the high priest in Jerusalem....

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    If you notice bis name was later changed to Flavius Josephus. It was reported that he was a rebel general that was able to keep himself from being executed by telling Vespaision that he was the messiah. So this guy can not be taken seriously, its also been thaught that the story of jesus was a copy from Josephus writtings on the war between the Jews and Titus and Titus was later the son of god that became jesus.

  • kaik
    kaik

    If you want to read writting on Josephus, I would recommed Loeb Classical Library which has parallel greek texts with english ones and you can decide on it on yourself.

  • Simon
    Simon

    The earliest manuscripts had little or no mention of Jesus - they were added initially to margins by later writers and eventually into the text.

    He was also a rebel leader who, after being captured, brown-nosed his way to Rome and the Caesar. When he died hisveyewitness testimony is that he saw him rise up to heaven.

    Hardly the historian the Jesus proponents would have you believe. But they'all take anything as 'evidence'.

    Lack of mention of Jesus is more evidence that Jesus did not exist. All those miracles? All that standing up to the Romans? And yet the rebel / 'historian' didn't think it was worth a mention.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    It always makes me laugh when believers try to bolster their claim for a historical Jesus by citing Josephus.

    The earliest manuscripts we have of Josephus' works are a thousand years into the Christian Era, we know that later ones were tamperd with, as Simon notes above, but are we to believe such editing only took place later ?

    It is doubtful that Josephus refers to the figure we know as Jesus from the Gospels.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Ask him.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    A very provacative topic and one that has busied scholars for many years. The most interesting and IMO likely scenario (Doherty) is that the 3rd and now lost reference to Jesus (quoted by Origen and Eusebius referred to by Jerome but not in the current text) was by a very early Christian interpolator that revered James. And was later (or possibly by the same hand but later in the volume) used as a source for the other 2 references. The convoluted particulars of manuscript transmission produced a modern text that ommits the 'lost reference' but retains the 2 other interpolations.

    In summary, no, Josephus did not write any of them.

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