Greek Mythology influence on New Testament

by Magnum 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Magnum,

    To understand the Bible (and any writing for that matter) come to terms with the culture, religo-politics, concepts, idioms, geography, and so on and on at the time when something was written. Each group was writing (and rewriting) to its own immediate community, with the purpose of influencing it.

    This does not mean whether there is a God or not. It simply means that the Bible (which did not come into existence for many centuries after Jesus) is not the Word of God. Do not feel the need to throw God out with the rejection of the Bible, although you might ultimately reached that stage, when you find it comfortable to do so.

    Doug

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Well said Doug, it saves all those totally time wasting hours trying to extract what is "truth" or "gods will" from the Bible when you realise it is not inspired, just simply the writings of men of their time.

    For example, Paul and his contemporaries and predecessors had the concept that the atmosphere went up to the Moon and beyond, so when Paul was "transported to the Third Heaven" he believed he had physically travelled beyond where we now know the atmosphere ends.

    Knowing things like that puts a very different view on what the writer had in mind. A mind not totally stable it seems, he seems prone to these hallucinatory experiences. Just an example.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Okay, glad you're interested in that material, Magnum. I went into reading it with a skeptical mindset about the Documentary Hypothesis, and it took a while for the weight of the evidence to accumulate until I was convinced.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I have a lot of reading, researching, and thinking to do. I want to make a definite decision as to whether to believe the Bible. Again, thanks to all ( fulltimestudent , _Morpheus , Terry , Phizzy ). And Snare , it does seem that I'm at the beginning of the end of my belief in the Bible. Right now, that's depressing to me. I loved having a hope for the future, but now that hope is fading fast.

    _________________

    Every intellectually honest investigator of Christianity has to go through the same stages of grief.

    My big shock was in discovering there were NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS in the whole wide world!

    Watchtower materials I had used for research had NOT prepared me for that.

    _____________

    Early Christians are used as a buffet of cherry-picked quotes to jam sideways Watchtower viewpoints. No study is ever devoted

    to the controversy, disagreement, opinionating, violence, and dissonances between Christian congregations and leaders.

    The total isolation of Paul's Christian teaching from the fictional and mythic Jerusalem "governing body"is a scandal.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Magnum: it does seem that I'm at the beginning of the end of my belief in the Bible. Right now, that's depressing to me. I loved having a hope for the future, but now that hope is fading fast.

    I can feel your pain, I've been through the same recently, and all it took was a serious evaluation of the NT; I didn't even spent much time dealing with the OT. I too came to be convinced that the Bible isn't the "word of God", and Christianity as we know it is mostly an invention of the apostle Paul and his disciples, and has little to do with the teachings and activities of that jewish Rabbi that we know as Jesus. An appealing invention, but it has no foundation in the teachings of a "would-be-son-of-God", which is what ultimately would grant its authority.

    Like Doug Mason said, this in itself doesn't negate the possibility of the existence of a God above; but destroys the portrait of the God that we have been so familiar with. That loss can either be sad or liberating. I feel a mix of both. The way I see it at this point in my journey, if a mighty, loving, caring and just creator God exists, he's for sure distant and apparently barely interested in us as individuals - if at all. Plus, I question whether such God require or even be interested in our worship and obedience? I can certainly love and care for people who don't obey and worship me. Why would God make that a requirement to bestow his love and care upon us, anyway?

    Eden

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    Doug Mason: The first people who wrote and accepted the idea of a God-becoming-man were Jews.

    Doug, I have not read, "The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ," but Sydney Uni Library has a copy, and I shall look at it soon, as I am not sure about the thought, expressed in the concept, "The first people who wrote and accepted the idea of a God-becoming-man were Jews." If the author is considering the thought expressed in Genesis 18> then I understand, otherwise I would have to consider, at least in western thought, that the Greeks were first.

    Robin Lane Fox discusses the concept in his "Pagans and Christians in the Mediterranean World," chapter 4, titled, "Seeing the Gods." He draws attention to the writings of Homer (Ninth or Twelfth century BCE) in his epics the Gods were not just onlookers, they became participants and, 'stand beside' their heroes, as 'evident helpers.' At the end of the Iliad, Priam (an elderly man), afraid, defenceless, sets out to go to Achilles's camp. On his journey he meets a handsome young man who became his guide. Priam explains his guide as divine assistance. "Some God has held his hand over me." The young man turns out to be Hermes.

    Understanding that common and age-old belief, helps us understand the crowd response in the claimed incident in Lystra, when Paul performs a miracle,

    " The gods have come down to us in human form! Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker." (Acts 14: 11,12)

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    To further examine the possible influence of Greek Mythology, think about the implications evident in this map:

    This map marks spheres of influence on the shores of the Mediterranean in the sixth C. BCE. The red dots mark Greek cities, colonies and settlements. The yellow dots mark the areas settled by Phoenicians. (The Phoenicians are thought to be Canaanites). While its true that there are no red dots in the Palestine area of that time, we can understand that prior to Nebuchnezzar's destruction of the Jerusalem of the time, there must have been some interaction between Jews and Greeks, as the Greeks traded with Egypt by sea and land.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    And one city on that map is important in a search to understand the influence of Greek/Hellenic thought on Jewish (including Christianity) holy writings:

    Miletus was a Greek coastal city on the western shores of what we know as Asia Minor. It is interesting to us because a revolution in thinking occurred here roughly at the beginning of the sixth century BCE. The revolution replaced mythos with logos. Foundation myths that had attempted to explain why the world existed, were replaced, by logos as the human rational faculty that began to look for explanations within a framework of general hypotheses. In other words, scientific rationalism began to take the place of superstition.

    Robin Waterfield, in his book, The First Philosophers, The Presocratics and Sophist, (Oxford University Press, Re-issue 2009) examines what we know of the men who are said to have, as far as the west is concerned, invented philosophy and science. Among the first are Thales, Anaximenes and Anaximander, all of whom lived in Miletus. It’s also a city that, according to NT traditions, was visited by Paul. But the reason I mention it here, is that it was also a city that would have been part of the coastal trade routes and the land routes of West Asia.

    Wakefield suggests that “Ideas always travels with trade.” And to him, the location of Miletus, on a trade route linked to the older cultures of Babylon, Egypt, Lydia and Phoenicia, brought mythos to Miletus, from many places. It was also wealthy, and supported a literate, leisured class who had time to think about the various creation myths that were related by travellers, and to speculate for themselves.

    It is against this background that Jews redacted their holy writings.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    Doug Mason:

    Doug Mason: The first people who wrote and accepted the idea of a God-becoming-man were Jews.

    OK, thnks for bringing the book, "The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ," to our attention. I managed to get to SU this afternoon and borrowed the book. The study unit in which I enrolled this past semester, made it very clear that the first followers of Jesus, even after his death, were Jewish, and that their Judaism was as important to the first, as their belief in Jesus. And now, Daniel Boyarin makes a compelling case that Daniel ch. 7 is the origin of the divinity of Jesus. I'll look forward to discussing it at some point with Dr Chris Forbes, who convened my study unit last semester.

    After only a couple of thoughtful hours of reading, I can recommend " The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ ," as a start to a better understanding of the development of the divine Jesus among the early believers.

    It also (to me, anyway) confirms my understanding that the character Jesus was deluded.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    My big shock was in discovering there were NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS in the whole wide world!

    I remember when I began looking for the Truth in the Bible thinking that I would dilegently search the scriptures for the one true doctrine and discovering the fact that there are no original manuscripts and thinking how am I supposed to know what the authors really wrote? Copies of copies of copies with numerous errors in them, some intentional while others due to fatigue or human error. If the argument could be made that the Bible was written perfectly and transmitted God's message perfectly, we have no way of knowning without the original manuscripts.

    I've ultimately concluded that if there is a god then none of the world's religions accurately depict him.

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