What laws are on your side (in the U.S.) so you can leave quietly

by oppostate 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  SAHS

  “oppostate”: “You have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you. . . . Basically if you withdraw from a congregation, you can hold them legally responsible if they retaliate against you for doing so. This makes for a situation where they cannot DF you for leaving the congregation.”

  The only potential problem I’m thinking of, in practice, is that even though the congregation may theoretically have some legal liability for disfellowshipping a person in a manner which is unjustified and unwarranted (at least according to “natural law” or general “contract law”), they may just decide to go ahead and do that anyway, sending their little committee report to the Watchtower branch headquarters – because if anyone goes sending letters to the BOE in an attempt to tell them how to run things in his or her particular case, especially by putting forth some form of an ultimatum, the BOE is apt to consider such actions as a form of what they term “insubordination,” which probably would usually apply to an elder but may possibly be used against a ministerial servant or even just a rank-and-file member. (It all depends on how they may interpret and apply it.)

  I’ve heard that the Watchtower has used “insubordination” as a grounds for committee cases and has even led to disfellowshipping of brothers. (And look what happened to our dear brother Raymond Franz when they even just suspected that he was rocking the boat!) Apparently “insubordination” is theoretically something they can use as a blanket charge against any who don’t tow the party line and who dare to not do what they’re told. (It seems that BOE’s tend to not exactly care for being told what to do by any “dissenters.”)
• 

  Tech49

  No better words than as already stated.

  They have only as much power over you as you allow them to have. Take away their perceived power, and they are nothing but selfish, arrogant men that don't really have your best interests at heart.

  Don't give them more than they deserve, and focus your efforts and attentions where it will be appreciated. Love your family, say something nice to a complete stranger, exchange a smile, thank a veteran or a police officer.

  Empower those that deserve it, including yourself, and take back that same power from those that will lie to your face and stab you in the back.

  Jack Harper, Tech49
• 

  Junction-Guy

  Can someone ask to be removed from a particular congregation without actually disassociating from the whole organization? If someone can find a way to do this, then perhaps they can find a loophole to leave without actually getting tagged as such, thereby there would be no institutionally enforced shunning by the family.
• 

  rebel8

  Very interesting. I have changed my views a bit after reading that article.

  I've pretty much believed it's best to not recognize their authority by resigning--just walk away. And that's probably still the best thing to do if you don't have the money that justice costs.

  If you can afford justice, then perhaps you could resign via a registered letter citing these cases and stating your expectations as a former member, effective immediately.

  These people really have no power, just the mental power we give them. Just stop going, walk away.

  I see your point, but people's businesses, marriages, friendships and jobs can be harmed, as well as their reputation and standing in the community, by shunning, badmouthing, etc. They have the power to do a lot of harm. It would be nice for them to stop behaving that way.
• 

  Chaserious

  I hate to always be a buzzkill, but all of these cases are significantly factually different, relying on factors that would almost never occur in the JW org. The key with Guinn is that they publicly annonuced her "sins" from the pulpit and sent letters around to other congregations. They also sent their members to hound her to get her to "repent." If you want to have a balanced view of the state of the law, make sure you read Paul v. Watchtower also.

  That said, here are some situations where I believe the law could *possibly* be "on your side" in the U.S.

  • You are expelled without them following proper procedure. E.g., without a committe of 3 elders or for a stated reason that is not a disfellowshipping offense.
  • Comments about the specific nature of your alleged offenses are announced from the platform, or other untrue specific information about you.
  • Elders or other JW/WTS persons continue to attempt to contact you after you make clear you have no interest in being part of their organization.
  • You are removed from an offical legal status without your consent, e.g. as a trustee or officer of the land ownership entity for your local congregation.

  Other that that, write a letter to yourself if you wish. I suppose it's not going to cost you anything. I would not suggest that anyone line a lawyer's pockets trying to sue over run-of-the-mill disfellowshipping and shunning. But if you want to, it's your money. The legal can of worms that would be opened if courts ruled that people can't shun would be unbelievable. It's morally reprehensible that they emotionally blackmail members with the threat of shunning. Let's be realistic, it's awful if your family shuns you. Mine does. But even if you win in court, they will just view it as persecution. If your family is willing to listen to the WTS and shun you now, do you think they'll decide to associate with you even if you win a judgment in court? If you're out, you've already won to a large extent. Collect your chips and take them with you.
• 

  oppostate

  Can someone ask to be removed from a particular congregation without actually disassociating from the whole organization? If someone can find a way to do this, then perhaps they can find a loophole to leave without actually getting tagged as such, thereby there would be no institutionally enforced shunning by the family.

  Exactly, the loophole is that once you remove yourself from a congregation, the congregation reps i.e. the BOE cannot take retaliatory action against you for doing so, it's a free country and you can leave any congregation you want.

  Since Momma WT isn't going to hold a JC and DF anyone not at Bethel, you as a congregation member don't have any connection to the WT, that's the way the WT likes it. So, it's up to the congregation to do the dirty and hold a JC to "begin the shun".

  By removing yourself legally from the congregation, you can still associate with congregation members as any worldly person can do. But since the elders have no legal power to act against a worldly non-member of their congregation, they cannot act against you as a former member unless they want to expose themselves to libel and spreading slander by announcing statements that carry a negative connotation of you and your reputation.

  Since all you are doing is fading with the law on your side, it's definitely not a good idea to go ahead and put up Christmas lights if you take this road. This only allows you to believe what you believe, and do what you wish while doing it discretely, and away from the congregation.

  The elders don't really want a headache with lawyers. Since you should make it clear you aren't DA'ing from the JW religion, just leaving the congregation, and telling them that if they seek legal counsel from the WT (with whom you as of now don't have a legal case) once the WT starts giving them legal support you will consider them as supporting the BOE's slanderous actions and then you will include the WT in the lawsuit.

  What this does is it sends a message to the lawyers at Bethel. If you involve yourselves in this matter by giving legal counsel, your WT Society will be included in the pestering legal activities I'm about to unleash on the local BOE if they dare mess with my name and reputation.

  The WT lawyers are going to suggest to the local BOE to "forget about it" and leave you alone, and that they better not aggravate the situation by doing anything stupid like holding a JC without you and DF'ing you.

  The WT doesn't want any bad publicity and the shunning issue is something they need for control but they don't want exposed to the public or it would cost them new Bible Studies and potential later full fledged, R&F, money contributing members. If you make a big stink and just one Bible Study hears about it and quits as a result of learning that it's likely they'll be loosing their family if they get baptized then make a serious mistake--It's really not worth it to Momma WT.

  If this "loophole" costs the bOrganization enough members who can't be shunned and are out there free to associate while harboring appostate feelings, you'll see action from Bethel rushing to plug up that loophole. If on the other hand, just a few slip through the cracks and enjoy family association without being members of a congregation then the WT will just look the other way, and best of all, advise the local BOE to do likewise.
• 

  GLTirebiter

  Opinion: I am not a lawyer, etc.

  Don't let the Letter of Disassociation and Judicial Coucil sideshows distract you from attending to the genuinely important business.

  Update all hospital and medical records which indicate you are a Witness and follow the "no blood" policy. Those need to be fixed, in case you must be treated while unable to make your own decisions. You don't want the Hospital Laision Committee telling the hospital what medical decisions you have made, and you probably wouldn't want a bedside visit from the elders either.
• 

  NAVYTOWN

  The members of the Governing Body, the District Overseers, and the local elders are essentially uneducated self-important nobodies. Their strategy is to manipulate the rank and file members into believing that they have some sort of 'authority' over them. This is only true if a person allows themselves to be cajoled into believing it. There is nothing legally that prevents any person from walking away from a religion. So the best bet is to just forget that the Witnesses ever existed and go on with your life. Whatever psychological games they want to play is totally up to them. Just ignore them totally.
• 

  rebel8

  Since you aren't DF'd they won't make the "no longer a JW" announcement.

  They don't announce it when someone disassociates themselves? I am surprised to hear that.

  Even though they don't announce the specific sin when announcing df, do they still read the scripture about 'not mixing in company, not even saying a greeting'?