how does Jehovah rationalize Babel?

by SpiderMonkey 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • SpiderMonkey
    SpiderMonkey

    I'll try to keep this concise... This is an issue I never got an answer to, from the elders or any witness, on my way out of the "truth":

    JWs believe that god permits evil to answer the "age-old challenge from Satan the Devil," that man can't rule himself without god, correct? (please correct me if I'm wrong)

    So... What's up with the Tower of Babel? I seem to remember (don't have a bible now, so can't check myself) that chapter of Genesis saying something about god fearing the potential of man, and therefore confusing the tongues of the Babel tower-builders... And, if taken literally as the witnesses do, well... Can you think of any single greater divisive force in the history of man than the fact that we are all clustered into language groups, from which (to a VERY great extent) come our cultures, and even the evolution of our separate religious structures? Research shows that a young child's learning a certain language sets up a certain logical structure in the brain (i.e. the Chinese structure being quite different from the English), thereby (I would suspect) making one culture / language group's religion very difficult to faithfully transmit to another, if not impossible. With different languages, suspicion develops, because you literally (even if you learn the other language) do not know what the other group is thinking; the seeds of war are already there, in other words. Seems to me as though Jehovah cheated on his challenge ;)

    I'll emphasize that I don't believe in this bible story; just brought it up to raise the question I have about seeming contradictions in the witness' worldview here.

    SpiderMonkey

    P.S. For that matter (OK conciseness be damned ;) what about the matter of supposedly unleashing the demons on the world in 1914? I thought the challenge was that man couldn't govern himself, not that he couldn't do so with the deck stacked against him!

  • ChiChiMama
    ChiChiMama

    Spider,

    I'll emphasize that I don't believe in this bible story;

    Thank goodness, because I didn't want to have to be the one to break it to you that this is just a tall tale.

    It is silly isn't it, to think that an "all powerful God" would need to resort to "playing dirty" so man doesn't over power him.
    Seems like a big contradiction to me in more ways than one.

    ChiChi

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : how does Jehovah rationalize Babel?

    Apparently, Jehovah didn't like high-rise office buildings in ancient times, but it seems he is now used to them and they don't bother him anymore.

    He's a pretty fickle God, you know. Never know what will or will not piss him off next.

    Farkel

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Interesting question and challenge.

    It's one thing to question God's motives but another to get the story wrong, so permit me to simply add a little more background and you can still take it from there.

    For one, mankind was told to spread out into the world. When mankind is disobedient God punishes them sometimes and sometimes manipulates them to do what he commanded them to do. If they are truly rebellious he has reserved the lake of fire for them. That's it. Basically the earth was designed for only the obedient and righteous.

    Having said that, the witness idea about mankind "ruling himself for 6000 years" basically is for the record of what man and Satan would accomplish during the slightly less than 6000 years but within limits; when they get too far off track, God sometimes intervenes so that his purpose stays on track.

    In the case of Babel, there might not have been any need to confuse the languages had they been obedient and dispersed as they had been commanded. So that's the accurate context of introducing the various languages.

    As far as a predisposition to war, one might ask if a peace-loving Spanish-speaking person meets a peace-loving English-speaking person, do they automatically find it difficult to coexist?

    On the other hand, do persons of the same language ever fight each other? Like the Americans fought the English? Ever hear of a "civil war"? So what's the problem there?

    God doesn't mind others observing how he deals with things, in fact, it's imperative to do so in order go get along with him. But basically, the idea of the 6000 years was "for the record" as I said. God could have just dusted Adam and Eve along with Satan right there and then and created a new couple and started over and that would have been that. But, there were apparent advantages to allowing Adams children to be born, even though imperfect so they could be saved later on. In addition, if man were allowed some freedoms without active, direct interference from God for a while, there would be a record of comparison of what will happen under man's rule and under God's rule. This, I think is important for free moral agents. He allows mankind to experience things for himself and then weigh the value of them. So in relation to the 6000 years, God will take a "rest" from Satan and man's rule and have Jesus (in the flesh) rule for 1000 years. A comparison of man's behavior under that arrangement with the 6000 years of man's semi-independent rule will then be used for determining on JUDGMENT DAY just who will get life and who will not. The people doing the judging will be from among mankind.

    But basically, the JIOR considers all these things "patience" and "mercy" on God's part since he really didn't have to allow any of this and if he didn't, YOU, a child of Adam, wouldn't have been born. So it was for the sake of Adam's lost children that this "exercise" opportunity is taking place.

    But it IS vitally important, while judging God to also observe his personality. What would be important to observe is that 1) He requires obedience, and 2) he has LOTS OF POWER to do all kinds of things to trip you up if you think you can oppose him effectively, and 3) Ultimately if you insist upon being obstinent he will definitely get angry and throw your a$$ in the lake of fire. No problemo. It's his universe, he can do what he wants with it. It's MY WAY or the FRY WAY...

    That's what FREE MORAL AGENCY is all about. The choice is to do it God's way and live forever or do it your way and die after a short period of time of relative independence.

    What amazes me about God is that ulimately, everyone can have a differing view of things and criticize God but in the end, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! God has the ultimate power to have the final word. Nothing happens without life.

    So as I said, the rebellions and opposing opinions are really for the philosophical record because in the end God will enforce his own PLAN for HIS universe, and in that defense, he as a LEGAL RIGHT, since he's the owner to do so. Any English Lawyer will tell you that.

    So, we all have a chance to rebel or a chance to be.......smart?

    :>

  • You Know
    You Know

    As the Bible observers, so history has verified the truth of the Scripture that states: "Man has dominated man to his injury." To that end humans have devised various schemes to enslave their fellows. The most pernicious of which is the empire. The tendency of governmental institutions is toward tyranny with the ultimate expression being absolutist totalitarianism. Accordingly, Jehovah intervened in mankind's behalf early on to thwart Nimrod's demonic scheme to consolidate his tyrannical power upon the entire population. By dividing the languages Jehovah made it virtually impossible for mankind to be yolked under one dictator. From Jehovah's standpoint he knew that if mankind would have been subjected to that sort of absolute power in its infancy that the full potential for humans in this system would never be realized. So instead of Jehovah acting to throttle mankind's development by confusing the languages, he was really acting in our behalf to set up checks and balances that would serve as a temporary bulwark against a world strangling empire.

    Of course, now, the language barrier has been overcome for the most part, but it served its purpose to delay the inevitable globalization that's taking place now. Presently, global policy makers want to reduce the earth's population by about 80% and they actually discuss way to bring about a massive culling of the herd. Interestingly, there are a number of prophetic books and related prophecies that present a somewhat disturbing justipositon with that, and describe how the system will ultimately succumb to a global genocidal holocaust, but we can be grateful that Jehovah has delayed it and given us a fighting chance. / You Know

  • Bang
    Bang

    I'm going to bed in a minute so I don't have time to answer, but here's some clues - hope all the clueless dubs aren't reading - sometimes I prefer it tht way.

    - the plain they found
    - the making of bricks
    - tower to heaven (above any flood)
    - they had the same language (so do the dubs)
    - all the evil purpose that they devised would be rationalised

    Better spread em out.

    Bang

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Interesting questions! That is one account that I hadn't revisited since I escaped from the Borg think.

    Although I no longer believe in the Bible as inspired of "God", many of its historical references have been corroborated, and so one wonders what truths might be behind the account of Babel.

    Even if the context in which it is presented is not valid -- that of God purposely confusing languages to thwart Nimrod and presumably the rest of mankind -- one cannot help but wonder if the actual introduction of different language families by some supernatural being(s) for whatever purpose may have some validity.

    I seem to remember reading long ago (in JW literature) that those who study the evolution of language find that all roads lead to Sumeria (ancient Babylon). If that is true, there may be some valid reason, supernatural or otherwise why that is the case.

    If ill-intentioned supernatural beings are behind the language confusion as some sort of experiment or game for their amusement, or to preserve their dominance perhaps, that might make more sense than trying to fit the occurence into the story of Adam, Eve, sin and redemption by the God of the Hebrews.

    Let's see if I have the Bible's spin right: We already have very short lifespans, we deal with sickness, adverse weather and other natural disasters, our own violent nature and wars, but for good measure let's just throw in a few hundred different languages to make things really challenging for these pesky, determined little creatures. And then after they have suffered immeasurably for thousands of years, let's destroy most of them and start all over again, once again with just one language. Sounds like a lab experiment. So much for a loving God with the power to make it all better.

    I would be very interested to know if there is any other literature that makes any reference to the origin of language or ancient Babel.

    If language families evolved separately and independently (versus supernaturally), one still wonders what was the basis for the language development.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    What are we to make of the Bible's story of the tower of Babel and the confusion of languages which there took place shortly after the flood? I believe that in order to correctly answer this question we must first deal with another confusion of tongues, the translation of ancient Hebrew into modern English.

    Genesis 11:1 tells us that when the Tower of Babel was being built, "The whole earth was of one language, and of one speech."

    As has often been pointed out in discussions of Noah's flood, the Hebrew word that is often translated in Genesis as "earth," giving readers the idea that its writer was referring to our entire planet, is much more often translated in the Old Testament as "land." In fact, we find this to be the case in the very next verse (Gen. 11:2) which refers to the "land" of Shinar. I believe that Bible translators who chose to translate the Hebrew word "erets" as "earth" rather than as "land" in the Bible's historical accounts of Noah's flood and the tower of Babel are mainly to blame for many people's misunderstandings of both the Bible and the history of mankind.

    The traditional interpretation of the flood and the dispersion at Babel has been that the total population of the entire world was confined to the land of Shinar in the post-flood era. It is said that these people, who supposedly amounted to all people living on earth, all spoke the same language and were all involved in building a tower. Then it is said that God confounded them, and off they went in all directions muttering Aztec, Mandarin, Swahili, and the like. They crossed oceans and reached far distant continents and changed their skin colors along the way.

    This interpretation of Genesis has continued in spite of much extrabiblical evidence that has long been available which proves that it cannot be correct. To see that the JW and Christian "fundamentalist" interpretations of the events which transpired at the Tower of Babel must be incorrect, all their advocates have to do is count the mud brick ziggurats in Mesopotamia. Any number that exceeds one kills their interpretation. And the remains of over thirty such "towers" have been found all over the region, in twenty-seven different cities, hundreds of miles apart. Had the entire earth been devoid of humanity except for Noah's descendants who all lived in the land of Shinar where the tower of Babel was built, what would explain all the additional towers?

    All those other ziggurats at all those other widely scattered sites could not have all been built at the exact same time as the tower of Babel. Thus they had to have been constructed either before or after the tower of Babel. If they were constructed before Babel, it would mean that Noah's descendants (if everyone then alive were Noah's descendants) had already begun to spread out and settle in widely separated communities, precluding them from all being at one place, which was the case according to Genesis 11:1,2. On the other hand, if the many other ziggurats were constructed after Babel, it would mean that after the Lord made clear to Noah's descendents that He didn't like them building such towers and after He prevented them from completing such a building project, they soon banded together again for the same purpose and successfully completed the building of many other such towers with no opposition from God. This makes no sense.

    What does make sense is to understand that building ziggurats was very much the thing to do in those days. The tower of Babel was simply one of many Mesopotamian worship centers. Clearly, the building of the tower of Babel and the confusion of the participants' languages which then occurred seemed like a gigantic event to those who were there and passed the story down to their descendants. But the fact of the matter is that the tower of Babel was only one such tower among many which then existed. It was probably not even the biggest. And it was almost certainly neither the first nor the last.

    So then, what did happen at Babel? Apparently some of Noah's descendants saw some of the fantastic places of worship built by their Sumerian neighbors, which were devoted to pagan gods. They then decided to follow suit and build just such a tower in an effort to reach their God. Due to their ignorance, the God of Noah's descendants tolerated the actions of the worshippers of false gods when they erected such structures in their foolish efforts to reach nonexistent pagan deities. However, God expected His chosen people to exercise better judgment. He was not pleased with their pagan copycat building project. So He put an end to it by confusing their speech. This action on God's part successfully brought an end to the spiritually misguided building project which Noah's descendants had begun and His doing so resulted in their being dispersed throughout their land.

    As a final note, judging from the writings of Noah's descendants, some of which predate the time of Babel, the confusion of speech which took place at Babel does not appear to have been a permanent one.

    Some may wonder why God said, concerning those who were building the tower of Babel, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." (Gen. 11:6)

    Obviously no one can say for sure exactly what God meant. But I'll take a guess.

    I suspect that God thought that, if He allowed His people to copy the religious building practices of their pagan neighbors, they might then begin copying other religious practices of those same pagan neighbors. Such as burning their children in sacrifice to Him. Or forcing their young men and women to work as temple prostitutes to raise money for Him. Or who knows what else? If God's people wanted to be like their pagan neighbors so badly, that they were willing to go to all the trouble of building a copy of one of their giant ziggurat temple towers, who knows what things they might have collectively done in an effort to be like their pagan neighbors? For them, as God watched them building that tower, anything seemed possible.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    To the Babylonians Babylon meant "Heaven's Gate". To the Hebrews, the similar word Babel meant confusion, so while they were in Babylon they concocted a story based on this coincidence to poke fun at their captors. That's all.

    --
    Bad times, hard times - this is what people keep saying; but let us live well, and times shall be good. We are the times: Such as we are, such are the times. - St. Augustine, 354-430

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    SpiderMonkey - good question !

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    JWs believe that god permits evil to answer the "age-old challenge from Satan the Devil," that man can't rule himself without god, correct?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just how fair is the challenge ?

    Mankind is imperfect
    Man is then given numerous new languages which confuse and create disunity.
    Thousands of new religions spring from Babylon and spread across the entire Earth to create even deeper divisions.
    This eventually means that a billion Chinese, a billion Indians and 99.9% of the rest of the world have no idea who the true God is.
    And add to that the fact that since 1914 Satan and his demons have been cast down to Earth to further mislead.

    Oh and as a last thought, although it took billions of years for God to create the Universe and life in it, man has just 6000 years to sort things out.

    Who knows where mankind's destiny lies.

    In a hundred years the world could be an overcrowded, polution filled mess. World economies could have collapsed. Famine and disease could affect billions. The ice caps might have melted. We may even have wiped ourselves out with nuclear weapons.

    Or mankind may develop inter planetary travel. We may have cured cancer. We may even have a cure for old age. This would make God redundant and religion a thing of the past. Science may eventually provide answers to pollution, famine and climate.

    God has stacked the cards against us. But until the game is played to the very end no one knows who is right.

    A JW will say that God will bring about Armageddon because he can see into the future and knows that mankind will fail.

    But how would anyone know if Armageddon had happened because mankind would eventually have proved God wrong.

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