587 vs 607: JW sources only

by wifibandit 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wifibandit
    wifibandit

    The latest JW Podcast has inspired me to update the copypasta comment that I post anytime this topic comes up.

    I have formatted it to more closely follow the wonderful www.jwfacts.com table. I have also added a few more links directly to the JW online library. This may be the only source that some JW's will trust.

    I need feed back on how to improve this. Please help me make this better!


    Watchtower QuoteYear
    Babylon fell 539 B.C.E, End of Belshazzar’s Rule"The End of Belshazzar’s Rule. On the night of October 5, 539 B.C.E." it-1 pp. 284 Belshazzar539 B.C.E
    "October 5, 539 B.C.E. (Gregorian calendar), when Babylon fell before the invading Medo-Persian armies under the command of Cyrus the Great." - it-1 236 Babylon, History
    "Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184
    Plus Nabonidus"On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some seventeen years(556-539 B.C.E.)." it-2 p. 457 Nabonidus+17 years
    Plus Labashi-Marduk"Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months." w65 1/1 p. 29+1 year
    "Labashi-Marduk ... was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184
    Plus Neriglissar"For Neriglissar... contract tablets are known dated to his fourth year." it-1 pp. 453 Chronology+4 years
    "Neriglissar ... reigned four years" Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184
    Plus Evil-Merodach"Evil-merodach reigned two years" w65 1/1 p. 29+2 years
    "After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered" Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184
    Plus Nebuchadnezzar"Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years" it-2 pp.482 Nebuchadnezzar+43 years
    Equals Start of Nebuchadnezzar's reignCalculated by adding above figures606 B.C.E.
    MinusNebuchadnezzar's 19th year2 Kings 25:8-9 "And in the ... nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·nez´zar ... the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah"-19 years
    Date for Destruction of Jerusalem=539 B.C.E +17 +1 +4 +2 +43 -19 =587 B.C.E.

    FAQ:

    1. Did we skip any kings?
      No Kings were skipped or added: it-1 p. 425 - Insight, Volume 1

    2. That's only 48 years. What about the prophecy of "70 years"?
      Compare with Tyre:

      “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination ... ip-1 p.253 par. 21

  • wifibandit
  • NCC-1701
    NCC-1701

    Looks good and thorough to me. I presented the same information to a Witness last December. He replied that he would not be speaking with me any longer because "something is blocking your mind to understand the matter"

    I don't know if he has ever read what I presented to him.

    NCC-1701

  • Lemonp
    Lemonp

    Awesome work, I've copied this down!

    To uphold the dates they have to disagree with their own printed guides!

  • SimonSays
    SimonSays

    Hmmmmm!!!!!!!!

    You have the starting point square at 539B.C.

    J.B. Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern texts rel, 3rd ed. (Princeton University Press, 1969)

    A.K. Grayson, Babylonian and Assyrian chronicle (Locust Valley, J.J. Augustin, 1975)

    September/October 539 BC the Persian and Babylonian armies met at Opis, east of the Tigris. Cyrus was victorious, the cities of Sippar and Babylon surrendered, Nabonidus was captured, and the Persian king entered Babylon as the new ruler.

    Even though you don’t show secular reasoning to establish timeline, there seems to be acceptance of secular time frame. So if you’re willing to accept the Babylonian army simply gave up in 539BC. Then, this would be a point of debate.

    Now the lunar/solar cycle to my reckoning started later around 5 BC. Before, it was lunar. There’s also some confusion that certain Kings would suggest the start of the calendar year.

    So without having access to the above books, I would be able to calculate with more certainty that will suggest the Babylonians surrendered in 538BC, thus bring into line the decree given by Cyrus the Great in that year in the month of Nissannu (Babylonian)-Nissan (Jewish)-March/April (Julian) which was the harvest of onions season. Since it was harvest time, then Cyrus most likely made his decree in the planting season which allowed the Jewish people time to prepare and go back to Jerusalem by the last harvest in Addaru (Babylonian)-Adar (Jewish)-February/March (Julian).

    When people make argument of calendar years, they automatically have a mindset of confusing year tables. While the Julian calendar runs from January-December 12 months, The Babylonian and Jewish calendar runs from March-February 12 months.

  • SimonSays
    SimonSays

    then Cyrus most likely made his decree in the planting season which allowed the Jewish people time to prepare and go back to Jerusalem by the last harvest in Addaru (Babylonian)-Adar (Jewish)-February/March (Julian).

    I made a mistake and forgot to conclude the calendar year, February/March of 537BC.

  • cappytan
    cappytan

    SimonSays: The Society accepts 539 BCE as the date of the fall of babylon.

    They accept an archeological source when it agrees with them. But if that same source disagrees with them on another point, they don't accept it.

    Why is it okay to accept a source for something that confirms your belief, yet reject that same source when it goes against your doctrine?

    I'll answer that question: it's a little thing called "Confirmation Bias."

  • johnamos
    johnamos

    [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

    When did Jehovah say he was going to call to account Babylon???

    when seventy years have been fulfilled

    When did Jehovah call to account Babylon???

    [8-1-81 WT- “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]

    [DP ch7 p.108- “The Great Timekeeper, Jehovah, had numbered the days of Babylon’s reign as a world power, and the end was closer than anyone at Belshazzar’s banquet thought. In fact, time had run out—not only for Belshazzar but also for his father, Nabonidus.”]

    [9-15-98 WT- “The Medes and the Persians easily took the city, and Belshazzar did not live through the night. With his death, and the apparent surrender of Nabonidus to Cyrus, the Neo-Babylonian Empire came to an end.”]

    [9-15-65 WT p.566 “JEHOVAH GOD is an accurate timekeeper. He sets the times for events in the carrying out of his purposes, and sees to it that they take place exactly on time”]

    [11-15-98 WT p.16 “we have confidence that he never fails to fulfill his purposes at his appointed time.”]

    How did they serve Babylon 70 years???

    The beginning of the servitude/subjection/domination that Babylon had over the nations, started when Babylon became the 3rd world power in 609*. The nations became in subjection to Babylon at the start of Babylonia’s greatest domination period, which is the 70-year period from 609 to 539**. The nations began their servitude to Babylon when Babylon’s yoke came upon them at that time. Any destruction or captivity by Babylon against any nation is not what started the servitude for those nations. That destruction and captivity only came about due to trying to resist putting themselves under the yoke of Babylon, which all nations came under when Babylon became the 3rd world power. It is under that yoke that it was considered to be serving Babylon.

    [Jeremiah 27:8 “And it must occur that the nation and the kingdom that will not serve him, even Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon; and the one that will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, with the sword and with the famine and with the pestilence I shall turn my attention upon that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘until I shall have finished them off by his hand.’ 11 “‘“‘And as for the nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and actually serve him, I will also let it rest upon its ground,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and it will certainly cultivate it and dwell in it.’]

    * [Insight Vol 1-The fall of the empire- The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, following a siege carried out by the combined forces of Nabopolassar, the king of Babylon, and of Cyaxares the Mede during the 14th year of Nabopolassar: “The city [they turned] into ruin-hills and hea[ps (of debris)].” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Thus the fierce Assyrian Empire came to an ignominious end.—Isa 10:12, 24-26; 23:13; 30:30-33; 31:8, 9; Na 3:1-19; Zep 2:13. According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar, Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar: “In the month Du´uzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah. This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.]

    Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901- [Cuneiform tablet with part of the Babylonian Chronicle (616-609 BC) The text of the Chronicle is broken for the year 612 BC, but the Medes joined the Babylonian forces and laid siege to Nineveh between June and August. Eventually the city fell and was plundered, though some Assyrians escaped westwards. A new Assyrian king, Ashur-uballit II rallied his troops at the city of Harran. The following year the Babylonians plundered the region of Harran. In 610/9 Ashur-uballit and the Egyptians who had come to his aid withdrew west of the Euphrates and Napopolassar sacked Harran. The Assyrians and Egyptians attempted to retake the region, but their siege failed. From this point on the Assyrians and their king disappear from history.]

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cuneiform_fall_of_nineveh.aspx

    ** [All Scripture-The Cyrus Cylinder- Some time after he began ruling as king of the Persian World Power, Cyrus’ capture of Babylon in 539 B.C.E. was recorded on a clay cylinder. This outstanding document is also preserved in the British Museum.]

    The Cyrus Cylinder, British Museum - [a clay cylinder is inscribed in Babylonian cuneiform with an account by Cyrus, king of Persia (559-530 BC) of his conquest of Babylon in 539 BC and capture of Nabonidus, the last Babylonian king.]

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cyrus_cylinder.aspx

    In the Isaiah Prophecy book excerpt (IP1 p.253), it states: True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire” they are referring to the length of time that Babylon was a world power as being considered as “one king” even though there were actually 7 kings during that time period. This means that although Babylon was a nation with a king (Nabopolassar) during the time that Assyria was the 2nd world power, it wasn’t until Assyria was defeated by Babylon in 609, that Babylon began it’s reign as the 3rd world power until 539 when that 3rd world power came to it’s end, a time period Jehovah himself gave.

    [DP ch7 p.108 “The Great Timekeeper, Jehovah, had numbered the days of Babylon’s reign as a world power, and the end was closer than anyone at Belshazzar’s banquet thought. In fact, time had run out—not only for Belshazzar but also for his father, Nabonidus.”]

    [Instight p.425 Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon. (2Ki 24:1, 2; 2Ch 36:17; Ezr 5:12; Jer 21:4, 9; 25:12; 32:4; 43:3; 50:1; Eze 1:3; Hab 1:6) That dynasty came to its end when “Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed.]

    [Instight Volume 2 p.480 During the 21st year of Nabopolassar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar marched with the Babylonian army to Carchemish, there to fight against the Egyptians.]

    [DP p.50 par.2 Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned for 43 years, headed a dynasty that ruled over the Babylonian Empire.]

    [1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar]

    [1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 Neriglissar, who reigned for four years]

    [1-1-65 WT p.29 par.3 His (Neriglissar) underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months.]

    [Instight p.457 par.1 NABONIDUS - Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.).]

    [5-8-72 Awake “Ptolemy’s Canon”- According to this Canon, the five kings that ruled during this period were Nabopolassar (21 years), Nebuchadnezzar (43 years), Evil-merodach (2 years), Neriglissar (4 years) and Nabonidus (17 years).]

    [KC p.186 par.5 Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.]

    The Nabonidus Harran Stele actually mentions Nabopolassar’s reign as well.

    [NABONIDUS H1, B Col. 1

    31 .his son, the 21st year of Nabopolassar, the 43rd year of Nebuchadrezzar,
    32. the 2nd year of Awel-Marduk, the 4th year of Neriglissar,]

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/Adda_Guppi_Harran.htm

    In regards to those kings: Starting from Nebuchadnezzar 43+2+4+9m+17=66y 9m

    [2-1-55 WT p.95 par.14 It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C.]

    539+66.9=605.9

    [Instight p.480 - During the 21st year of Nabopolassar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar marched with the Babylonian army to Carchemish, there to fight against the Egyptians. He led his forces to victory. The news of his father’s death brought Nebuchadnezzar back to Babylon, and on the first of Elul (August-September), he ascended the throne.]

    From the British Museum- [In 605 Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian crown prince, replaced his father Nabopolassar as commander-in-chief and led the army up the Euphrates to the city of Charchemish. There he defeated the Egyptians. Later that year Nabopolassar died and Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon to be crowned.]

    http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cuneiform_nebuchadnezzar_ii.aspx

    [KC p186 par.3 The Bible reports that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year (19th when accession year is included)]

    605-18=587

    [May 2009 AwakeA Receipt That Corroborates the Bible Record” A two-inch-wide [5.5 cm] clay tablet was unearthed in the 1870’s near modern-day Baghdad, Iraq. In 2007, Michael Jursa, a professor at the University of Vienna, in Austria, came across the tablet while doing research at the British Museum. Jursa recognized the name Nebo-sarsechim (Nabu-sharrussu-ukin, in its Babylonian form), a Babylonian official mentioned in the Bible at Jeremiah 39:3.]

    British Museum- [The Babylonian cuneiform inscription on this clay tablet sheds new light on Chapter 39 of the Biblical Book of Jeremiah. It gives the name and title of a high-ranking Babylonian officer who, according to Jeremiah, was present at the historic siege of Jerusalem in 587 BC with King Nebuchadnezzar II. It therefore confirms the historical existence of this Biblical figure. The tablet was translated in 2007 by Dr Michael Jursa, working in the Department of the Middle East study room. The text relates that the Babylonian officer had sent a quantity of gold, presumably as a gift, to Esangila, the temple of the chief god of Babylonia, Marduk:]

    http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/t/tablet_recording_gold_delivery.aspx

    British Museum- [Dr Jursa, Associate Professor of the University of Vienna, has been studying tablets at the British Museum since 1991. He says of this discovery:
    “Reading Babylonian tablets is often laborious, but also very satisfying: there is so much new information yet to be discovered. But finding something like this tablet, where we see a person mentioned in the Bible making an everyday payment to the temple in Babylon and quoting the exact date is quite extraordinary.”]

    http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/news_and_press/press_releases/2007/biblical_archaeology_find.aspx

    [May 2009 Awake- “finding something like this tablet, where we see a person mentioned in the Bible making an everyday payment to the temple in Babylon and quoting the exact date, is quite extraordinary,” said Professor Jursa. Acclaimed as one of the most significant discoveries in modern Biblical archaeology, the tablet “supports the view that the historical books of the Old Testament are based on fact,” says Britain’s Telegraph newspaper.]

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1557124/Tiny-tablet-provides-proof-for-Old-Testament.html

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The most solid occurrences of events drawn up from secular archaeological findings and the bible's own chronology is that ancient Jerusalem was finally destroyed with the main temple in 586 BCE. by Nebuchadnezzar . The accession of Jerusalem started in the year that Nebuchadnezzar took the throne of Babylon from his father in 605 BCE.and he took some people as slaves to Babylon who he wanted toward building of up of his own Kingdom. The bible even reconfirms 586 BCE. when it states that Neb made the final attack in his 19th year ( 605 - 19 = 586 )

    One thing you be confidently sure of C T Russell was not a deeply well trained bible theologian, what he was just an amateur bible theologian making weak speculation upon the preconceived notion of selling these ideas which would essentially help into the selling of his printed publications, he was more of a turn of the century religious charlatan than anything else.

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    @johnamos:

    [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]


    Let's look at a different portion of the same verses:
    [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]


    And, how Daniel interpreted it:

    [Daniel 9:2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years.]

    Daniel viewed the 70 years as being "the desolation of Jerusalem." It wasn't servitude alone.

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