Are these men appointed by holy spirit?

by zev 21 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  zev

  One of the things that has bothered me for years, in this “organization” is how appointments are made. Its alleged to be done by holy spirit. Or by MEN whose decisions are effected or influenced by holy spirit. I decided it was time to do some of my own research, And draw some conclusions based on it. Please, point out if I am wrong.
  Please also, point out if I’m right. The reason I bring this up? It will become plain to see.

  w85 8/1 31
  Questions From Readers
  How does the holy spirit work along with the modern-day Governing Body in the appointment of elders?
  The apostle Paul told Christian elders from Ephesus: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.”—Acts 20:28.
  Paul did not explain in detail how God’s spirit functioned in such appointments. However, we can gain insight from what occurred when the first-century governing body considered a question concerning circumcision.
  <snip>
  So without there being some audible directive from heaven on the circumcision question, those of the governing body could accurately say that “the holy spirit” had led to their decision.

  Here is where zev starts to get upset!

  It is similar with the appointment of Christian men to be elders, or overseers, in the congregations today. Periodically a group of elders (likely including a traveling overseer of the Society) meet to consider recommending brothers for appointment as overseers. Those in the group have themselves been appointed as elders and they manifest in their lives that they have the spirit.

  I believe in Jehovah. And Jesus, and that the power they use is called holy spirit. I have no doubts as to their existence. But these men are appointed by gods holy spirit? And they, in turn appoint others? By means of this same spirit? Last time I checked, Jehovah god did not make mistakes. Niether did his son. Read on:

  Their discussion is opened with prayer for the spirit’s guidance. Then, during the meeting, they analyze whether each brother being considered measures up to the qualifications for elders set out in the Bible, which have been recorded under the direction of holy spirit. (1 Timothy 3:2-7; Titus 1:5-9) They also consider whether the brother evidences in his manner of life that he is “full of spirit and wisdom.” (Acts 6:3) If they agree that he is of that sort and meets the qualifications to a reasonable degree, their recommendation is forwarded to the spirit-designated Governing Body or its chosen representatives. Later the congregation may be informed that the brother has been appointed.

  OK. I have questions now. If Jehovah doesn’t make mistakes, or errors in judgement, and he appoints these men as elders or ministerial servants, by means of holy spirit, which he is using on these “MEN” to do the appointing and make the right decisions, WHY ARE THE MEN APPOINTED TO THESE POSITIONS ALLOWED TO SERVE, WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY KNOWINGLY TO THE PERSON APPOINTED, DOING WRONGS THAT, ACCORDING TO MOTHER BORG, THEY SHOULD BE DISFELLOWSHIPED FOR? If holy spirit indeed directed these “men”, then this should NEVER happen, right?

  And even after they are appointed, and they serve for years, still commiting these wrongs, any wrong I’m saying, it doesn’t matter what, I know of cases where this has been done. If this is Gods organization, why does the almighty allow this to happen in his earthly organization? Surely he would never tolerate such a thing….would he? If indeed it was his spirit doing this appointing, could he knowingly let someone commiting these wrongs be appointed? I don’t think so.

  Understandably, the appointed elder is still imperfect and may have limitations. But the apostles were imperfect, both before Jesus chose them and later when they served on the governing body. (Luke 9:46, 54; 22:54-62; Galatians 2:11-14) They certainly did, though, have God’s spirit and were appointed under its guidance. Comparably, brothers and sisters can be confident that ‘the holy spirit has appointed the overseers, to shepherd the congregation.’ (Acts 20:28)

  Nope, I cant say I feel confident, can you?

  It is regarding such men that the counsel is given: “Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.”—Hebrews 13:7.

  Yes, remember that these are….MEN, running a printing BUSINESS, and its becoming painfully plain to me that there is NO WAY holy spirit is directing these MEN.

  comments?

  __

  zev

  Edited by - zev on 24 February 2001 19:38:24
• 

  Simon

  I agree.
  I think this is where God is making a HUGE mistake.
  When he chooses someone, he tells THEM.
  When he wants US to do something, he tells THEM to tell us to do it.
  He would have a lot more success if he told US who he had chosen and is he wanted us to do something, tell US, not THEM.
  eg. Someone tells you that God has spoken to them and wants you to give them $500. Du-huh! As if...
  BUT. If God spoke to me and told me that I had to give someone $500 I may pay a bit more attention.
  The thing that God is obviously failing to understand is that ANYONE can claim that they have been chosen by him and everyone with half a brain is getting pretty skeptical about the whole thing.
• 

  TR

  It seems to me if God knowingly appoints wrongdoers(who were supposed to be a good example to follow) to his callings, then God makes himself null and void in my mind in those instances. In other words, God does not appoint these men. Men appoint men, at least in many instances within the WTS and religions in general.

  So, do we listen to people like MDS who take their own religious course, independent of the WTS, or is he another CT Russell or even a Jim Jones in the making? I prefer, at this point in my life, to wait and see what happens. Am I doomed? Or am I quite rightly following the bible's instruction to not listen those who try to draw people away for themselves?

  It's a good question to ask how the holy spirit works. But IS there a holy spirit? WAS there a Christ? ARE the Jews right in claiming that the Christ hasn't arrived yet? Just more questions.

  TR
• 

  JT

  Zev says :

  MEN, running a printing BUSINESS

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

  i will prove to all reading this post that he is correct by going a step past the "Appointment" of a man by Holy spirit to the "Re-Appointment" of a male jw by holy spirit

  If you had a credit card that only worked in your town and never out of town unless you reactivated it each time you traveled outside of Chester Township-

  you would realize quickly you had a very poor quality bank that issued you the card- yet that is what happens when a male jw is appointed by God's Holy spirit-

  his appointment ain't much good out of town- allow me to illustrate:

  Bro Johnson's father died so he has decided to move back to help out mom

  Well when he gets to the hall he finds out that his appointment that he received 3 weeks prior is NO GOOD=

  Now he must wait till the CO comes in 6 months and then no RE-APPOINTMENT another 6 months and no re-appointment

  his hours are higher than all the current elders 17hours and 3 bible studies still no RE-APPOINTMENT

  So what started out as an Appointment by HS has actually turned out to be an appointment by a Corp

  You see this is what really happened

  Mr. Johnson move to a new branch office without being assigned there by the Home Office and so he has to start all over again as a stockclerk

  Yes Mr Johnson thought that his appointment was "Until he did something that disqualified him", but instead he realized that by merely moving to a different location his Appointment by HS didn't work

  Yes he merely works for a corp

  How sad

  Just my 2

  JT

  Ps they no longer need to wait till the Regional Manager (CO) comes by to be reappointed smile
• 

  somebody

  I'm speechless! zev and all you 4 just pointed out what I've been thinking for years and years!

  JT, you've given a great example. It IS the way you all say it is. There is NO Holy Spirit involved in the authority-picking position. The ONLY thing involved is, as zev said. BUSINESS. MONEY. that's about the extent of the billion dollar situation.

  peace,
  somebody
• 

  ozziepost

  Zev,

  Today's Watchtower Study "Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed" (Jan 15 issue p12) follows the same line of reasoning as the 1985 QFR.

  It states in the section "Appointed by Holy Spirit" paragraphs 9 to 15
  that the appointments are made by H.S. because:
  1) The requirements were inspired by H.S.
  2) When the elders meet to make recommendations of appointments they pray for H.S. to guide them.

  My opinion is that they claim too much for themselves and so leave themselves wide open to attack as you are now able to do.

  Another thing that this article does is to attack Christendom's clergy (what's new?) and, in effect, say that our elders are better than yours because they are appointed by H.S. Many Witnesses would take it as truth whenevr they read these attacks in the magazine. In truth, however, if they were to check for themselves, they would discover that the appointment of ministers in many churches is not much different from what the Witnesses have, and in many cases, seems to be closer to the first century model i.e. the congregation selected and this was confirmed by the travelling apostles. Note it does not say that the elders recommended. See for example, 1 Cor 16:3.

  The previous sub-heading in the study article reads: "Theocratic-Not Democratic-Appointment". Again this is misleading. It paints a picture of the churches appointing their ministers by a democratic process. This is easy to gloss over in the metting, but stop and think: Which churches appoint their ministers by a democratic process? Are there many? What of the others then? Is it possible that they too can claim a theocratic process of appointing ministers?

  Paragraph 6 reads : "Simply stated, a true theocracy is rule by God."
  That is simply stated, isn't it? As TR and Simon have intimated, what is the link between Jehovah and those making the appointments, if by H.S.?

  Another aspect to this is quite sinister. These guys so appointed actually believe that they were appointed by H.S. A bit like the divine right of kings. A poor result is the hardhearted attitude displayed by many of the elder class.

  If you go to next week's Watchtower Study you will be able to hear the "heartwarming" study article "Keep In Step With Jehovah's Organisation". [8>]

  Cheers,
  Ozzie (grateful to be shepherded by Christlike servants)

  P.S. one of the review question to this week's article says : "How is the Governing Body involved in the appontment of overseers and ministerial servants?" Look for the answer, it'll slay yer.
• 

  TR

  JT,

  Amen, brother, amen.

  TR
• 

  philo

  Hi Zev

  This snip from a related topic, WT punishments. It is relevant I assure you. Look out for Thaddius.

  JWs dodge such comment by asserting that any legal problems (miscarriages of justice or flawed procedures) are counteracted by the action of Holy Spirit on the three-elder committee. This, they say, overrides prejudices, reveals true ‘heart condition’ and ensures justice. If that is so, then why does an appeal committee sometimes overturn a verdict? Surely, this means that the first committee must have lacked Holy Spirit. And without Holy Spirit were those three men capable of acting as congregation elders to start with - let alone as committee judges? If not, shouldn’t they be removed as elders? Of course, that is not what happens. So the Holy Spirit argument tends to be used as a ‘fudge', and as an excuse for not setting up a better system, the saying is "Jehovah will sort it out". When an elder or committee makes a good decision, then, one infers long afterwards that Holy Spirit was present, when a bad decision is made one infers that it was not present. This is hit-and-miss justice.
  The only way out of this for JWs is to say that bad decisions are still Holy Spirit directed, but that they are tests of faith. Here one is asked to accept that Holy Spirit acts on one or more of the elders to positively prejudice him against the candidate for reinstatement’s case, or that it acts to blind him to evidence of ‘true repentance’ . By the same token, this argument concludes that truly unrepentant persons can be allowed back into the congregation through the operation of the Holy Spirit on that committee of elders. It seems ridiculous enough, but worse, it undermines the avowed purpose of judicial action, that of "keeping the congregation clean".
  It seems to me, you cannot have your cake and eat it. Either the WT should promote trusting the Holy Spirit fully, and removing all extraneous legal procedures which are only giving a façade of justice. They would then have to pray, "Jehovah, what shall we do with Brother Accused" and cast lots to make a decision, trusting the holy spirit to deliver the result (note: this is how Thaddius the Apostle was appointed). Or else they should reform their botched and inadequate judicial process.

  philo
• 

  ozziepost

  Philo,

  Thanks for your post.

  Some of our brothers and friends here may not appreciate that often elders serving on judicial committees find it hard to reach a satisfactory decision. By satisfactory, I mean that the appropriate decison on guilt, repentance etc is not clear. The elders are instructed not to be hasty in reaching a decision (see ks91) but in practice they feel great pressure to reach a speedy conclusion to the matter at hand.

  The pressure comes from different quarters; the body of elders, the circuit overseer, and the accused. Often the judicial committee find a certain amount of "compassion" to reach a speedy conclusion.

  My point here is that I have often heard elders express that since they knew there could be an appeal agianst their decision, then it didn't matter so much whether their decision is correct or not, so long as they reach a decision.

  In all of this, you rightly question the operation of holy spirit. In fact, Holy Spirit seems to be absent from the judicial process. Instead we have a judicial process that is very loosely modelled on the adversarial legal process of "the world". Except that of course the elders are the prosecutors and the judges. Most unsatisfactory.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie
• 

  philo

  Hello Ozzie

  >Instead we have a judicial process that is very loosely modelled on the adversarial legal process of "the world".

  >"Very loosely"

  Is this a case of pommyesque understatement from you? If there is a model at all, she has been painted by Picasso, the canvas has been ripped up and fed to a herd of goats, and then pieced together from the droppings by Sunday-school children. Just my rational approach.

  >Except that of course the elders are the prosecutors and the judges.

  Yes, and they are also the police force, the defence counsel, AND friends or sometimes family-related of the accused.

  >Most unsatifactory

  How do you mean? It's beautiful.

  philo (nice to hear from you Oz)