by silentlambs 25 Replies latest jw friends
avengers, if the person was convicted in a court of law, then it should be perfectly legal for you to distribute any information that is publicly available related to the case.
Drop by the court house or write them a letter asking for information about it. Any information they send you will be "public".
"As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
Believe in yourself, not mythology.
<x ><
I've often wondered had anyone actually read 1 Tim chpts 4 and 5? ... as well as the ENTIRE chapter in Duet. relating to this matter. This would help keep a certain 'human organization' from taking ONE scriptural verse sorely out of context.
Okay...i looked this one up....this is strictly about the Two Witness Rule...here's what Jesus said:
Matt. 18:15-17
"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault (Lit. 'repove him') between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter (Or 'EVERYTHING SAID') may be established.(Lit. 'might stand). If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
Looking at it from Christ's words....the rule does not seem to imply being a 'witness' to the actual sin, but being a 'witness' to the ACCUSATION of a sin so that the accuser's words are clearly recorded.
ex. Bro nice sees bro sinful steal some money from him. Bro Nice approaches Bro Sinful about the matter privately but Bro Sinful refuses to correct matters. Bro Nice brings two others along with him to approach Bro Sinful so that he has 'witnesses' to his addressing Bro sinful and that the accusation can be clear. Well, Bro Sinful still fails to correct matters. Now Bro Nice has no choice but to take the matter before the congregation......etc.
Watchtower Idiocy at its finest:
: We certainly appreciate that your belief in this matter is sincere and very strong. Nevertheless, in following Scriptural procedures, the congregation can only take judicial action on the eyewitness evidence of two or more individuals, or confession. So, while we may have some strong convictions on a certain situation, without this Scriptural evidence the elders are not able to take judicial action.
This statement is a LIE and I'll show you why: "the congregation can only take judicial action on the eyewitness evidence of two or more individuals, or confession. "
Let's see here: Fitzwater was unanimously convicted of molestation by a jury of his peers and sentenced to prison. His son was also molested by him, but that evidence is not good enough for the WTS to DF him.
On the other hand, the Flock book clearly states that if some nosy dub spies and finds out that two ADULT single people of the opposite spend the night together, without ANY OTHER EVIDENCE, two witnesses are NOT required, and they are both promptly DF'd for at the very worst having consensual sex, and at the very best doing nothing improper at all.
In the first case we are talking about NOT taking steps to protect the congregation and innocent children from a felonious predator who is typically going to keep preying until he is stopped. In the second case we are talking about taking DRASTIC steps to "protect" the congregation from two adults who only POSSIBLY were consensual in having sex and hurt no one.
Yeah, that really "Bible-Based(tm)," isn't it?
Farkel
I would like to add that in the Dan Fitzwater case (And I have direct knowledge as I am his daughter-in-law) the the WTS had a legal representative present at his criminal trial in which four victims testified against him for abuses that accured repeatedly and over a period of 24 years. I believe, although I can't be positive, that the representative was Mario Mareno himself. The letter from the WTS was in response to my husbands letter AFTER the trial and AFTER his father was in prison. My husband asked why after being convicted and having these witnesses against him, why was Dan still not DFed. The letter posted above was the response. They absolutely knew of the 4 victims and they also had themselves a record of 17 victims. (this probably included the 4 we knew of because each of them had gone to the elders previous to this and got no help) I provided to dateline a circuit overseers letter to the WTS that talked about the 17 victims. The WTS society had to turn this letter over as discovery to the DA. They to this day have refused to name the victims claiming ecclesiatical privledge. The courts upheld their privledge. They say publicly that if there is more than one witness to the same type of crime they CAN use it as evidence. The key word is CAN. The problem is they DON'T.
Laurie
PS: in response to the above post, my husband was not himself sexually abused by his father. His step-sister was. My husband told the elders and the WTS that he witnessed his father going into the bathroom with his step-sister while she showered, on may occasions. up until the age of 15 when she was removed by social services. He said he was shaving and it was years later that my husband realized that this was not normal behavior. My husband fought to get his father removed from the congergation. This was when he and his sister were now in their early 30's.He was fighting for just that at the time his father was molesting another girl in the hall. An 8 year old that tried to kill herself later at the age of 10. My husband was even set to testify against his father, but there was SO much evidence against him that the DA decided they did not need his testimony.
LF,
Thanks for this information and welcome to this db.
Bill told me a lot about this real story last week. Its damn disgusting and the sad part is it seems to be the norm instead of a rare event. I read the letter and the other posts. Every time I read something that has the word "Fitzwater" in it I just about loose it with this bunch of nuts in Brooklyn.
I have been asking the lamestreet press I am dealing with to try and get this story out more.
Thanks for sharing this with us and the world. It will help alert victims that there is help for them and maybe some day soon it may help prevent this from happening to others.
hawk
