Two Witnesses to WHAT !!!

by jst2laws 19 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  jst2laws

  I have asked this question on another thread but want to bring it to everyone's attention. The WT society is trying to make it look as if they have always handled molestation aggressively and that very little change has been required, only 'strengthening' their policy over the years.

  Two Witnesses to separate incidents of the same kind of wrongdoing

  This is what disturbs me. Two witnesses to separate incidents of the same type of wrongdoing has been allowed for at least 30 years. It was often used to establish smoking or fornication. It appears it should have applied to child molestation but there are so many cases where it has not. At least in the Fitzwater case the society knew there were many victims but nothing was done.

  I would like some clarification. Was it the negligence on the part of the local elders to proceed with two witnesses to separate occasions or was it the service department telling them not to proceed.

  Can anyone out there tell us of an incident where a molester was dealt with on the basis of two witnesses to two separated molestations?

  Oppositely, can you tell us of incidents where you know this has not been handled as the society says it has?

  I would appreciate whatever you feel like sharing on the subject.

  Jst2laws
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  safe4kids

  Jst2,

  I responded in the other thread, so I won't repost all of the info here. There were 3 witnesses to separate incidents AND a confession from the molestor. Also, the elders were in contact with the society about the case and NOTHING was done. It was all swept under the rug by the elders, and so, by extension, by the society. Does this not prove that their claims are bogus?

  Dana
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  SYN

  I think SilentLambs should be able to help us with this!

  "Vaccination has never saved a human life. It does not prevent smallpox." The Golden Age, Feb 4 1931 p. 293-4 - The Sacredness of Human Blood (Reasons why vaccination is unscriptural)
• 

  jst2laws

  Thanks Safe and SYN,

  What I'm really looking for is at least one case where a pedophile was dealt with as the May 24, 2002 letter implies has always been the case: "two persons are witnesses to separate incidents of the same kind of wrongdoing....can be deemed sufficient to take action".

  I have check with several JW elders and none have ever seen it.

  Jst2
• 

  crawdad2

  the sweeping of it under the rug, doesn't iniciate with the elders,..... they are "advised" from the gov body to do it.
  an inexperienced elder would likely call the police.
  but their "rule" of "report all cases to the headquarters"......is what keeps the gov body on top of it all,,,,,,,,,, everytime a little girls is molested, because of written instructions from the gov body, the elders call headquarters........and the gov body invisibly take over...... instucting it all to be swept under the carpet for fear the media will get a hold of it.

  then the little girl is handed back over to the molester parent.
• 

  dungbeetle

  old hippie has stated on at least two posts that this is the case where he lives.

  If I understand him correctly, his elde4rs use the two-witness-two-act-rule for child abuse.

  I have repeatedly asked him to clarify and he has not done so for ME. Perhaps he will do so for a fellow ex-elder.

  Kent knows how to reach him directly, in fact maybe he knows enough to be able to answer you himself.

  BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

  
• 

  jst2laws

  Thanks Dungbeetle.

  I'm still hoping to get more info on this from others.

  Meanwhile, I'll try to locate old hippie.

  Jst2
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  JanH

  jst,

  From the Flock book, p. 111:
  

  What kind of evidence is acceptable?

  There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons
  repeating what they have heard; no action can be taken if
  there is only one witness. (Deut. 19:15;Jol1ll 8:17)

  Confession (admission of wrongdoing), either written or
  oral, may be accepted as conclusive proof without other
  corroborating evidence. (Josh. 7:19)

  Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy or evi-
  dence (testified to by at least two witnesses) that the
  accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of
  the opposite sex (or in the same house with a known
  homosexual ) under improper circumstances, is acceptable.

  The testimony of youths may be considered; it is up to
  the elders to determine if the testimony has the ring of
  truth.

  The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered, but
  it must be carefully weighed.

  If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of
  wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident,
  their testimony can be considered.

  The whole elder manual is at http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/jv/index.htm

  - Jan
  --
  - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")
• 

  dungbeetle

  Jan, that doesn't answer jst2 question. He wanted a specific case.

  Unless oldhippie speaks more specifically, I think we know what the answer is going to be. It's going to be that Watchtower has changed in mid-stride, and is pretending that the two-witness one act rule never existed.

  BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

  
• 

  ChiChiMama

  Jst,
  You ask
  

  Oppositely, can you tell us of incidents where you know this has not been handled as the society says it has?

  I present the following which came from this thread bold type is mine.
  * http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=29147&site=3

  The following is a letter written from the service department regarding the molestation of the step daughter of Daniel Fitzwater. In the Dateline program Daniel Fitzwater was shown by correspondence from a Circuit Overseer to have molested 17 JW children who unfortunately did not have two eye-witnesses for each incident.
  Thus Brother Fitzwater went to prision and remains in prision as a JW in "good standing".

  WATCHTOWER
  BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC.

  COLUMBIA HEIGHTS. BROOKLYN, NEW YORK 11201-2483, U.S.A.
  PHONE (718) 625-3600
  SDS:SSP September 25, 1999

  Dear Brother,

  Please accept our apologies for the unusually long delay in responding to your letter dated May 7, 1999, in which you inquire about the situation involving your father, Daniel Fitzwater. We have given consideration to your questions and are pleased to make the following observations.

  We are pleased to note your statement that you believe in Jehovah. Your concern with how he views us, which you expressed, is most appropriate. In some situations humans are not able to establish a matter with accuracy, but we know that Jehovah sees all, We are given this assurance at Hebrews 4:13 where it says., "And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting." This accounting with God is something that all of us, including your father, will have to make.

  As we are sure you realize, because of the need for maintaining confidentiality on matters of this nature, we cannot comment on the details of any specific case, including your father's. However, we are pleased to try to address some of your questions that deal with the general procedures in handling cases in which an individual is accused of wrongdoing. First, let us assure you that you are in error on the point you made in the third paragraph of your letter. The Society does feel that your concerns are important to us, and we have given very careful attention to what you have written.

  We noted in the penultimate paragraph of your letter you say-, "The fact that I personally know of none of the allegations first hand does not diminish the fact that in my opinion, I believe my father molested my stepsister Dawn." We certainly appreciate that your belief in this matter is sincere and very strong. Nevertheless, in following Scriptural procedures, the congregation can only take judicial action on the eyewitness evidence of two or more individuals, or confession. So, while we may have some strong convictions on a certain situation, without this Scriptural evidence the elders are not able to take judicial action. This in no way implies that they do not believe the one bringing them the information, but as you said in your letter it is how Jehovah sees things that is important. Since this is God's direction to those examining cases of wrongdoing, the elders must abide by the Scriptures. -Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:15; 1 Timothy 5:19.

  Some matters are firmly established by sufficient evidence or by confession, or both. However, what is the situation when an individual in these cases appears to the elders handling matters to be demonstrating heartfelt repentance? In that case the elders would reprove such a

  FITZWATER
  SEPTEMBER 25, 1999
  PAGE 2

  man, as Titus said "with severity". (Titus 1:13) The decision to reprove or disfellowship, the individual is left in the hands of the elders of each congregation. It is up to them to weigh all the accusations, and all claims of repentance. In the case of Titus, you will notice the reason that the apostle Paul left him in Crete: "That you might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders." (Titus 1:5) These older men had a responsibility to handle matters in the congregation, in the same way as the "older men" in ancient Israel would have cared for matters of this nature.

  So, Brother Fitzwater, while we realize that we are dealing with imperfect men, we can have confidence that Jehovah is watching all things. if by cunning or pretense someone is able to fool men, even men appointed in the congregation, they could not fool Jehovah. In the final analysis it is to him that we all have an accounting. As the apostle Paul said at Romans 14: 1012: "We will all stand before the judgment seat of God."

  As you pray for strength from Jehovah to endure in this very trying "time of the end", please act in harmony with your prayers. Do not neglect your spiritual health by missing meetings, or neglecting your personal study and Bible reading. Be assured that all of us are deeply concerned for your spiritual well-being, and more importantly that Jehovah cares for you.

  With this letter, please accept a warm expression of Christian love and best wishes.

  Your brothers,

  Watchtower Bible and Tract Society
  OF NEW YORK INC.

  Edited by - silentlambs on 1 June 2002

  ChiChi