The Ransom Sacrifice -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  FusionTheism

  The Sacrifice of Jesus — Simplified Suggestion

  Many Christians have different theories about exactly how the Ransom Sacrifice (also called The Atonement or The Passion) of Christ worked.

  Just how did Jesus’ death on the cross 2,000 years ago provide us with salvation, forgiveness, and eternal life?

  Some Christians believe that Jesus somehow mystically experienced the full pain and suffering of eternal torment in hell (for every person’s sin who has ever lived), during the 3 hours of darkness when He was hanging upon the cross. Thus, they explain, He “absorbed” all of God’s wrath toward us in Himself, so now God has no wrath left against anyone who puts faith in Jesus.

  That sounds really good, until you think about it more carefully, then a few problems come up:

  1. Where does the Bible say anything about Jesus mystically experiencing the torment of Hell for each sinner while on the cross? I haven’t seen that in the Scriptures.
  2. How could Jesus experience an eternity of punishment in just 3 hours? Sounds illogical.

  Other Christians think that Jesus made an exchange with God: That He exchanged the perfect offspring He potentially could have fathered, for all of us imperfect sinners instead.

  Again though, the problem with this theory is that the Bible doesn’t say anything about this, so it’s just speculation. It does sound logical and plausible though.

  The Bible, surprisingly, does not go into detail about how exactly the Sacrifice of Jesus saves us. It does make it clear that it (along with His resurrection) is the most important event in history, God accepted it as an offering, and that faith in His Atonement is what saves us from our sins.

  A Fresh View of the Atonement

  I propose a fresh view, based on the Scriptures. Christ, at John 3:14-16, said that His Sacrifice saves people just like the Copper Snake on the Pole saved people in Moses’ day.

  The Copper Snake itself had no magical or mystical powers. It could not bestow life on anyone. No, rather, it was something God set up as a symbol to test the faith of people, to see who would follow His direction and trust in His way of doing things.

  God said that all the people had to do to be saved from the poisonous venom was to trust God’s message and look at the Copper Snake on the Pole.

  In the same way, my view is that the Sacrifice of Jesus didn’t have any magical or mystical powers, but instead, was the symbol that God chose to set up to test the faith of people, to see whether they would humble themselves to accept His message and do things His way, or reject it and do things their own way.

  Jesus came to earth to show us the perfect way to live and the perfect way to die, to give us an ideal to strive toward and imitate, and God saves us for having faith in Jesus’ perfect ideal life and death, and in His message of trusting God’s method of salvation instead of our own.

  God also chose death on a cross as His method of salvation in order to attract the humble and poor, and make a mockery of those who think they are so wise.

  I’m not saying there can’t be more to it than this, I’m just saying this is my view, based on what I see in the Bible.

  Let’s allow the Apostle Paul to sum things up:

  1 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭18-25‬ (NIV): For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

  For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

  Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

  1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭1-9‬ (NIV): When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.

  My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

  No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” — the things God has prepared for those who love him—
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  MessianicChristian

  Atonement and Ransom is a judicial / legal matter involving the sovereignty of God. It has nothing to do with the degree of Jesus' suffering on the cross.

  God made man, [a material organism endowed with life and consciousness], called in Hebrew a nefesh. The Hebrew word nefesh refers to material organisms endowed with life and consciousness.

  Man is not a conscious spirit entity [ a soul = a conscious spirit entity ] inhabiting a material body, man is the actual material organism endowed with life and consciousness. The man did not become a living soul, the man became a living person.

  God as the man's creator / maker has the authority to define the perimeter of man's autonomy - [freedom]. God laid one command on the man. This was not a test to see if the man would obey or not, this was a command given to the man by his maker and sovereign. God expected Adam to obey this command.

  God informed the man that if he disobeyed he would come under a judicial sentence of death by execution. The Hebrew statement, "dying you will die" is a legal phrase meaning that a person is sentenced to death by execution.

  God did not execute the man, Adam, but God did not pardon him either and so the sentence of death by execution remains on the descendants of Adam.

  The man Adam, a human nefesh made by God and endowed with life and consciousness, is a son of God. Another human nefesh like Adam - a son of God - who is made or begotten by God and endowed with life and consciousness and is a blood relative of Adam would have the right of repurchase and could legally ransom humanity from the "dying you will die" sentence of death by execution imposed on Adam by God for his disobedience.

  Adam's one sin of disobedience in the garden of Eden is the only sin that has to be atoned for.

  The death that entered the world by the one man Adam is not death due to accident, disease, famine, mortality, natural forces, murder, warfare, or will animal attack. The death that entered the world by the one man Adam is a judicial sentence of death by execution imposed by God on Adam.

  What is required to meet God's judicial / legal condition is that the man who suffers the judicial / legal execution , the "dying you will die" death sentence in place of Adam is [1] the actual equivalent of Adam, that is a human nefesh, a material organism endowed with life and consciousness who is [2] not under the "dying you will die" death sentence imposed on Adam.

  Adam is the of the human son of God made from the dust of the earth and given life by God. Jesus, "the last Adam", is the human son of God begotten by the Holy Spirit - the power of the Most High in the virgin Mary at Nazareth when the angel Gabriel visited her, therefore the human nefesh Jesus can substitute for the human nefesh Adam.

  Jesus the only son of God begotten in a human mother and Adam the only human directly made by God from the dust of the earth both have the same father . This removes Jesus from the lineage Adam making him not under the "dying you will die" sentence of death by execution imposed on Adam.

  Jesus being the seed of the woman Eve who was made from the bone and flesh of Adam before Adam sinned makes him an actual relative of Adam and Eve giving him the right of repurchase the descendants of Adam and Eve.

  The simplicity of the atonement / ransom is that God accepts the unjust execution of his obedient only begotten son, the human nefesh Jesus as a legal substitute - atonement - for the "dying you will die" judicial sentence of death by execution imposed by God on the human nefesh Adam, the disobedient son of God.
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  Half banana

  Fusion, I don’t want to be brutal but I will be. Your reliance on the veracity of the Bible is a grave mistake. In real life, as opposed to the mystical one fabricated by the stew pot of religion, the Bible is an antique and outdated irrelevance. Humanity in the developed world has moved on...have you not noticed? We increasingly depend on the technologies which scientific determinations have made and which humanistic thought and practice such as found in democracy and putting human needs first; has resulted in happier lives and welfare for the many. In the UK at least and most of north Western Europe we live in a post-Christian environment where religious belief has been superseded by pragmatism. Religious hope remains for the otherwise hopeless who find it necessary to grasp an invisible straw to keep mentally afloat. Religion is the institutional belief that we can overcome death...we cannot. The ransom sacrifice is central to this false belief.

  Consider this: if evolution is factual and therefore man was not created but evolved; at what point in the evolving continuum of the genus Homo would a “ransom sacrifice” begin to work?

  It is impossible to make a logical round peg fit into a mythical square hole.
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  cofty

  The Gospel Contrasted With the Watchtower Doctrine of the Ransom...
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  Sapphy

  best explanation of the history of the ransom doctrine

  I miss Farkel
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  MessianicChristian

  Biblical faith is not the belief that we can overcome death it is rather the belief that there is a Creator and life giver with the ability to recreate - resurrect us as living organisms / persons from death, and that he has appointed a savior, a man [human] who has already overcome death.

  if evolution is factual and therefore man was not created but evolved

  is the big IF since there is no known natural process that can account for the existence of life nor is there any known natural process by means of which single cell organisms can evolve into multi-cellular organisms. s

  We increasingly depend on the technologies which scientific determinations have made and which humanistic thought and practice such as found in democracy and putting human needs first; has resulted in happier lives and welfare for the many.

  Wait until the Arabs, China, India, Iran, Japan, Russia, and Turkey, get up to speed on drone technology and genetic engineering and AI / Robotics.

  As an American I can tell you that no one with a functioning brain should trust the long term intentions of the corporate oligarchs in the USA, who by the way control our elections and our elected representatives.

  It is a fact that most of the problems of the world can be solved using current technologies but those who control the tech are competing to become the wealthiest corporate and hedge fund oligarchs.

  The billionaires will be competing to become trillionaires.

  If the Bible isn't true I seriously doubt that Western European pragmatism will be of much use in the probable the brave new world of Soylent Green, Blade Runner, the Wrath of Khan, Contagion and I Am Legend.

  Technology will not save us from technology.

  Neither evolution by natural selection nor evolution by punctuated equilibrium nor evolution by any other science-fantasy construct fabricated by evolutionary biologists save us. If the world becomes unlivable we will not evolve we will become extinct.

  Humanistic thought and practise will not save us even though most of humanity are not persons of ill will, the ambitious few will always seek wealth and power and glory / fame at the expense of the many and they will more likely than not carry us over the precipice.

  I am a person of faith and so I have hope for those who are faithful in this age and for those who are recreated / resurrected in the next age.
  
  

  
  
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  cofty

  if evolution is factual and therefore man was not created but evolved - MC

  There is no "if" about it. It is as certain as the fact that the earth is not flat and neither does the sun revolve around our planet.

  is the big IF since there is no known natural process that can account for the existence of life

  This is simply not true. So far the mechanism of abiogenesis has not been solved but there has been outstanding amounts of progress in recent years.

  In any case, the fact of evolution in no way depends on abiogenesis. Every living thing evolved from a common ancestor through evolution by natural selection. How LUCA came to be is a separate question.

  nor is there any known natural process by means of which single cell organisms can evolve into multi-cellular organisms.

  This is also factually incorrect. Endosymbiosis is the key to this question. It was proposed by the late Lynne Margulies. Perhaps you would enjoy reading "Life Arising" by NIck Lane.

  Please tell me which scientific books that explain evolution you have read? Thanks.
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  MessianicChristian

  the mechanism of abiogenesis has not been solved ... evolution in no way depends on abiogenesis
  

  So how is abiogenesis a solution to anything.

  Every living thing evolved from a common ancestor through evolution by natural selection.

  This a belief which has no support in nature.

  Nothing can evolve through natural selection because nature cannot selected what does not already exist, and if an organ or a trait already exist then there is no need for it to evolve. Evolution through natural selection is circular reasoning to the point of ridiculousness. It is the equivalent of an evolutionary biologist trinity doctrine. Metaphysics, mystery, maybe, but certainly not science.

  Endosymbiosis is the key to this question. It was proposed by the late Lynne Margulies.

  Evolutionist have been proposing since 1859 and still have not identified a natural process that can account for the existence of life nor is there any known natural process by means of which single cell organisms can evolve into multi-cellular organisms, nor is there any 'evolutionary reason' why they should,since single cell organisms reproduce and survive in greater numbers than multi-cellular organisms .

  The so-called fact of evolution is a fantasy construct and evolutionary biologists have as much credibility as the Watchtower Society for exactly the same reason. That is, constantly coming with claims that have no demonstrable validity in nature.

  I have been reading science texts since 1968 so don't play yourself with the fantasy that you are a superior intellect dealing with an inferior intellect. You would probably be better off posting non-sense about the earth not being flat and the sun not revolving around our planet.

  
  

  
  
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  cofty

  So how is abiogenesis a solution to anything.

  Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life.

  This a belief which has no support in nature.

  The evidence for the common ancestry of every living thing is supported by so much evidence no rational informed person could deny it. Paleontology, comparative anatomy, biogeography, and especially genetics.

  Nothing can evolve through natural selection because nature cannot selected what does not already exist

  A fin evolved into a limb. The fin already existed. Evolution resulted in new forms of existing features.

  nor is there any known natural process by means of which single cell organisms can evolve into multi-cellular organisms

  Endosymbiosis. Please read "Life Arising" by Nick Lane. The genetic links between the mitochondria in every cell in your body and their prokaryotic ancestors are astonishing. Put down your Iron Age book of supernatural superstitions and read some science.

  I have been reading science texts since 1968

  And yet what you have said so far would suggest that in fact you once read a pseudoscience article in a religious pamphlet in 1968.

  Please tell us what books on evolution you have read in the last decade.

  What do you know about comparative genetics, amino acid sequence analysis, endogenous retroviruses, pseudogenes, LINES and SINES, evolutionary developmental biology etc?

  The evidence of your primate and fishy past is in every cell in your body. It is the most fascinating subject on earth.
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  cofty

  A fin evolved into a limb. The fin already existed. Evolution resulted in new forms of existing features. - me

  I thought I should tell you a little bit more about this. I know you are interested.

  Paleontologists have discovered a whole sequence of fossils demonstrating the gradual evolution of ray-finned fish into land animals via lobe-finned fish. It is amazing to see the development of the pattern of limb bones that are common to so many living things. The big bone (femur) - two thinner bones (tibia and fibula) - lots of wrist ones - digits pattern is found in various forms in everything from humans to elephants to birds and bats and whales.

  Even better than that the exact genes that code for limb buds and the genetic switches that turn those genes on are also known. The enzyme gradient that leads to to growth of five digits is also known. What is more, the exact same genes can be found in fish - resulting in fins - and in birds - resulting in wings.

  Evolution is not an atheist conspiracy. It is reality. It is amazing.

  See this thread for a great example of a fossil called Tiktaalik that shows the development from fin to limb...