by FetterFree Annie 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
ThiChi,
You wrote,
Thanks for the info. THe point is that no one here has life all tied up in a nice little box. Free thinkers know better.......
So as a "free thinker" you are superior? Puh-lease
"That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight, losing my religion." REM
And thank God I lost my religion.
The Big Dawg
They devise invalid situations and conclusions which do not and cannot apply to a God infinitely higher than what their minds can conceive of.
HMMMM.
As Jeremiah says, the potter has the right to make one clay pot beautiful and to destroy another
Pots do not have brains. Don't mix your metaphors. There is quite a large gap between a pot and a human.
so God has the right to take a human life while we do not.
And in the Old Testament he seems to do it with great glee. Your God is a horribly cruel God.
I'm so glad nobody has seen him do anything since that time. God has gone on vacation, it seems!
All I know is that God is alive and to say it ain't so, is a fallacy.
Well, there are people who say that Elvis is alive, too. And they have photos!
Note: This post is not meant to be derogatory, I respect your for coming back and posting your opinion here - you have obviously thought about it at great length. I'm not ripping you off or anything, but I do have DOUBTS.
L_A_Big_Dawg:
Try it, you will like it......
I am a "free thinker." The difference between my free thinking and yours, is simple. I don't look down on people that disagree with me.
"That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight, losing my religion." REM
And thank God I lost my religion.
The Big Dawg
Sheeesh, every single damn reply from the christian side required complete blind faith in the Bible's words, especially from a literal perspective. No reason, no objectivity. I'm not here to bash christianity, but I saw no reasonable, even slightly humanistic response to those somewhat superficial atheistic statements. Both sides can do better than that!
All of those questions have got me wondering...
How many atheists can dance on the head of a pin?
"As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
Believe in yourself, not mythology.
<x ><
Ok, let's look at the atheist's position logically. No Bible required.
Atheist ascert that
in the entire universe
there has never existed in the past
nor now existing in the present
nor will ever exist in the future
any god, gods, or goddesses
of any size, shape, or description.
First, what we have in this sentence is what is termed in logic a universe negative. Universal negatives can not be proven. Since universal negatives can not be proven or demonstrated then to affirm a universal negative is irrational.
Secondly, in order to prove that there is no god, one must become God.
A. You must be everywhere at one time, therefore omnipresent and infinite.
B. You must be able to travel from the past, to the present, and into the future at the same time. This means you would be eternal.
C. You must be able to know all things. Making you omniscient.
D. In order to be omnipresent, infinite, eternal and omniscient you would need to be omnipotent. Therefore, you would be God.
If only an infinite, eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God can declare that there is no God, then you have a self-contradictory statement which is a violation of logic, and is also irrational.
So folks, it is more of a "blind leap" to be an atheist. Atheiism is a blind leap because it is irrational and illogical.
See how easy that was? No name calling, no straw men, just looking at the view with plain hard logic.
ThiChi, this is "free thinking", maybe you should try it.
DanielHaase, I do not have blind faith in the Bible. The book has been affirmed by people more learned than you or I (I will not bore you with the names, besides they are out there if you choose to look for them).
FunkyDerek, if you quote the Bible please remember that a passage out of context is a pretext for a prooftext. Funny how old JW habits refuse to die. [8>]
Please have fun, and play nice
"That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight, losing my religion." REM
And thank God I lost my religion.
The Big Dawg
Atheist ascert that
in the entire universe
there has never existed in the past
nor now existing in the present
nor will ever exist in the future
any god, gods, or goddesses
of any size, shape, or description.
No they don't. At least I don't. There are certain gods which can be proven not to exist, but if the term god is defined broadly enought, then it's nonexistence can never be proven, for the reasons you outlined. Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of belief in gods. As such it is not a positive assertion. I don't believe in gods, nor do I believe in unicorns, fairies, elves, goblins, or the Easter Bunny. It is not necessary for me to prove the eternal nonexistence of these entities for me not to believe in them, nor does the fact that I cannot do so tell us anything about whether they actually exist or not.
See how easy that was? No name calling, no straw men, just looking at the view with plain hard logic.There was a straw man. Your initial premise was incorrect (based on a flawed understanding of atheism), and therefore your conclusions, although they followed logically from that premise, were incorrect.
DanielHaase, I do not have blind faith in the Bible. The book has been affirmed by people more learned than you or I (I will not bore you with the names, besides they are out there if you choose to look for them).It's also been denied by "people more learned than you or I." Seems like a stalemate, unless we have some standard of proof other than an argument from (anonymous) authority.
FunkyDerek, if you quote the Bible please remember that a passage out of context is a pretext for a prooftext. Funny how old JW habits refuse to die. [8>]Please read my post again carefully. You'll see I did nothing of the sort. You may also wish to read the original post to which I responded.
--
Bad times, hard times - this is what people keep saying; but let us live well, and times shall be good. We are the times: Such as we are, such are the times. - St. Augustine, 354-430
quote-
One of atheists' gravest mistakes when speaking about God, the true God, is that they bundle God along with His limited creation, as though He is subject to its environment, its Laws and its entanglements.
The biggest mistake that Christians make is assuming that they know the "true God". They believe that their religion and Bible are pure in the sense that all that is contained within it are unique. It is very well proven that much of the Bible and Christianity is nothing more than stories borrowed from other religions and a Dogma centered around a small offshoot of Judahism.
I'm not an atheist but I respect their views and often I find that it is refreshing to have a viewpoint not scewed by blind faith. Any belief system that claims to know the true God is a lie. It can so often be easilly proven to be nothing more than opinion.
FunkyDerek,
I can not challenge your "brand" of atheism. This was a general statement as to what is commonly accepted by atheists in general. Which you admitted. Therefore, the statement is not flawed, and the conclusion is correct. However, you still have a problem. The existence of the entities you listed has been disproven. The existence of a god has not. The reasons why this is so are listed in the second part of my post which you did not touch. More on that later.
Secondly, no matter how you spin your view, you are still holding to a universal negative, which still can not be proven. Since belief in God is widely held, it is up to the atheist to prove his hypothesis, not vice versa. Again we are left with the issues from the second half of my post. If one is to say that there is no god, one most become a god, therefore creating a self-contradiction.
I will grant you that my arguement from an unknown authority was in bad form. However, I simply didn't have all of my notes on the case against atheiems in front of me. If you wish to have a clear, concise and logical treatise on the case against atheism, I would suggest Dr. Robert Morey's book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom. Also, I recommend, J.P. Moreland/Kai Neilson debate on the subject. Both are refreshing and intellectually stimulating.
As for your last statement, do not modern evolutionists hold that life came from water? Or is that you disagree with them too?
Lastly, the atheist still has to answer the second part of my post. In order to rationally believe that there is no god, gods, or goddesses, the atheist must meet all those criteria. If that is the case and the atheist does declare no god, then we have a self-contradictory statement, and therefore illogical.
P.S. good arguements I hope that we can continue to talk on good terms. I bear no ill will.
"That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight, losing my religion." REM
And thank God I lost my religion.
The Big Dawg
