by Sirona 33 Replies latest watchtower bible
This is just one of those subjects that most christians don't give a rats ars about discussing. it's pointless and has no hope of ever going anywhere except down.like an excuse to battle. Why bother.
.........................It's the silence between the notes, that make the music.....................
If any JWs or bible believers would like to give a counter argument, please do.I’m not interested in arguing. If you are interested in what the bible has to say about witchcraft, here it is.
Deuteronomy 18 :9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [1] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
2 Chronicles 33: 5 In both courts of the temple of the Lord , he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his sons in [1] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord , provoking him to anger.
Micah 5: 10 "In that day," declares the Lord ,…. 12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
Nahum 3: 4 all because of the wanton lust of a harlot,
alluring, the mistress of sorceries,
who enslaved nations by her prostitution
and peoples by her witchcraft. 5 "I am against you," declares the Lord Almighty.
Galatians 5: 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As you can see the bible does in fact condemn witchcraft.
The bible characteristically says it is only women who practice thisNot true, note four of the five above passages are not gender specific.
Moreover, it condemns magic used to HARM people, not magic in general.I would say you are correct that magic in general is not condemned, as long as it does not violate any biblical principles.
Are you equating witchcraft and magic as the same?
Blessings to you
Maynard
Thanks everyone for your contribution!
I will address Maynard's post since this raises quite a few questions.
Firstly, I need to point out a pet hate of mine.
I’m not interested in arguingWhen I say counter-argument, I don't mean the sort of argument where things get nasty. One can argue without it being a nasty discussion. So many people assume I mean something else when I use the word argument. An argument can simply be a conversation in which two parties give their (usually conflicting) points of view.
OK so now thats out of the way. Deuteronomy 18. Here is some explanation:
These verses would seem to prohibit a number of modern day activities:Now 2 Chronicles 33: 5 "In both courts of the temple of the Lord , he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his sons in [1] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord , provoking him to anger."harming or killing people through the use of sorcery of both kinds: evil magick intended to harm others, and benign magick intended to heal others. knot magic (tying and untying knots while cursing someone)
engaging in methods of foretelling the future by studying nature (e.g. whether the winter will be unusually cold by studying the size of caterpillars or whether spring will be delayed by studying the actions of a groundhog)
casting sticks (e.g. I Ching or perhaps runes)
astrology
raising ghosts or spirits through the use of spiritism (a.k.a. spiritualism) by a medium
snake charmingWiccans are prohibited from harming people by any means. Some use various methods of foretelling the future, as do members of other religions. Some engage in spiritism, so do followers of other faiths. The latter two practices are not necessarily an integral part of their religion.
The original wording of these verses condemned individuals who followed practices defined by these 8 Hebrew words:
yid'oni: knowers; wizards; persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God. (Some Wiccans have engaged in spiritism and have attempted to contact the dead. However, this is not necessarily an integral part of the Wiccan religion).
sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead. (Ditto) .
qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system. (Many Wiccans as well as Christians sometimes use tarot cards, runes, scrying etc. to foretell the future, but this is not an integral part of the Wiccan religion) .
m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature. (Ditto) .
m'nachesh an enchanter (perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake. We have never heard of Wiccan snake charmers) .
chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic. (Wiccans sometimes engage in knot-tying, but only for positive healing magic. Again, it is a practice that some engage in and is not an integral part of their religion).
m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others. (Wiccans do not engage in this activity; they are specifically prohibited from doing so by their Wiccan Rede).
doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov. (Again, there are some Wiccans who engage in spiritism, but it is not necessarily an integral part of their religion).
With regard to human sacrifice, modern day wiccans or Pagans do not do this. It has been argued that "Sorcery" is considered to mean use of herbs to poison someone. Since Wiccans do not harm people, this doesn't happen either. With regard to Divination...the bible contradicts itself:
There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God:Other examples of this are given on this page: http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htmIn Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.
The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.
Nahum condemns using Witchcraft to "enslave" a nation - clearly again a negative use which harms people. Plus, God condemned her harlotry, not just the witchcraft.
Now Galatians 5.19,20 - Look at the Greek word used that is translated "Witchcraft":
The key word of interest here is the Greek word "pharmakia" from which the English words "pharmacy" "pharmaceuticals," and "pharmacology" are derived. Interpreted literally, it refers to the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others. In the above English translations it has been called:sorcery: 10 times;
witchcraft: 7 times;
magic, magical arts: twice;
spiritism: twice;
participate in demonic activities: once.The most likely meanings do not appear in any of the Bible translations that we have checked:
A poisoner: a murderer who uses toxic potions to kill humans by stealth.
a person who goes around spreading dissention - poisoning people's minds.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl.htm
While I admit that the bible does condemn certain practices such as spiritism, fortune telling, using magick to harm people, worshipping other gods, etc. This does not mean that the bible condemns ALL witchcraft. As I quoted above, there are instances in scripture of divination being carried out with Gods approval.
Witchcraft and magick are not the same, yet witchcraft does not need to involve the things the bible condemns. I may practice witchcraft without ever summoning a spirit or divining.
I would agree with you
I would say you are correct that magic in general is not condemned, as long as it does not violate any biblical principles.
Sirona
Perhaps if there weren't so many discrepencies in the Bible it would make arguments like this easier. Most christianity is absolutist in that if you don't agree with them then you're wrong. I'm sure this position gives someone a nice feeling of self importance but doesn't really prove anything. I'm impressed with your research Sirona but I fear that it may fall on deaf ears. We have Paul to thank for the sad state of christianity today.
Sirona; it seems to me your definition of witchcraft is different from that of the bible. The biblical definition involves spiritism, contacting the dead, worship of pagan deities, casting spells to harm others, and other things along this line.
You say you are not practicing these things, great. As long as you are not violating biblical principles you are fine.
With regard to Divination...the bible contradicts itself:….. there are instances in scripture of divination being carried out with Gods approval.This is not true. First in Genesis 44, this is a historical narrative, not a passage on law or teaching. Further more God does not give approve of Joseph’s actions in this passage, to the contrary God disapproved these actions in Deuteronomy 18:10. This passage only shows Joseph was a sinful man in need of redemption just like the rest of us.
Num 27:21 He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the LORD.
1 Sam 28:6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.
Now notice in these two passages that the person is inquiring, or addressing the LORD, not the “Urim”. The Urim was more then likely a symbol of God and his power. A modern day example would be going to the alter to pray to God. There is no power or divine substance to the alter, but only in God whom you would petition at this location.
Sirona in what way does your practice of “witchcraft” (using your definition) glorify God and bring you closer to Him?
Blessings to you
Maynard
The Book of Enoch has an interesting take on witches:
"Chapter 7]
1 And all the others (nephalim) together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants."
Sounds to me like the "witches" were the first to discover the healing properties of herbs. This learning supposedly came from the nephalim (angels).
Chapter 65
6 And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the Satans, and all their powers -the most secret ones- and all the power of those who practice sorcery, and the power of witchcraft, and the power of those who make molten images 7 for the whole earth: And how silver is produced from the dust of the earth, and how soft metal 8 originates in the earth. For lead and tin are not produced from the earth like the first: it is a fountain 9 that produces them, and an angel stands therein, and that angel is pre-eminent.'
And He said unto me: " Because of their unrighteousness their judgement has been determined upon and shall not be withheld by Me for ever. Because of the sorceries which they have searched out and learnt, the earth and those 11 who dwell upon it shall be destroyed." And these-they have no place of repentance for ever, because they have shown them what was hidden, and they are the damned: but as for thee, my son, the Lord of Spirits knows that thou art pure, and guiltless of this reproach concerning the secrets.
Is herbal medicine the reason for the flood?
Anything that has to do with spirits or ghosts or those little green men is spiritism and condemned by God. Do not let those wicked spirits take hold of you. Satan wants us to think there are telapathic being from outerspace. This is a great power that the wicked spirits have since they have no vocal cords.
Hey all,
read up on Balaam in the Bible (and see my threads about it if you are curious). Genesis has two conflicting accounts about him and how he 'divined' God's will. Was he or wasn't he an 'evil diviner'?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18834&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19074&site=3
cellomould
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody will see it. Gandhi
I'm a witch, I'm a witch. I'm the biggest witch in the whole damn world. <stops singing>
I have to ask this question Sirona. Are you starting this topic for purely debate purposes or do you care what christians think? I'm just wondering not trying to be an ass or anything. I know that since I've dropped the baggage associated with the Bible my life has been awesome. I've had more blessings and prayers answered by the Goddess than I ever did trying to be a good christian. This is not to say that christianity is bogus, it just never did anything for me despite going to church even after I left the WTS. I would love to hear what your belief system includes as I know that there are even differing versions of Wicca. If you don't feel comfortable posting it here please feel free to email me.
I agree with your comment, thinker.
Anything the scriptures have to say, pay attention.
trudy
