Five Questions To Ask The JW At Your Door

by silentlambs 23 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hawkaw

  Your last paragraph is "bang on" pathofthorns. "Joining".

  That is the whole key. Also to help the victims - lawsuits. That is the next key.

  Well stated.

  hawk

  p.s - want to talk via "overland wire/mobile phone let me know - I still have your number.
• 

  Liberated

  I was thinking these questions would be excellent for the householder to use.....arm the public with questions the typical jw can take back to the elders or mull over himself and investigate.

  We always discussed what happened at the door when we got back into the car. Think of getting into the car with one of those questions. Or taking an elder aside and telling him what a householder or bible student asked you. Is the elder going to tell you to tell a bible student not to watch news shows?

  Libby
• 

  Scully

  Here's a sixth question that I have encouraged everyone I've talked to about Dateline (10 of my co-workers watched the taped segment last night):

  Since it is Watchtower policy that "no pedophile goes in the door-to-door work unaccompanied", whenever a pair of JWs shows up at the door, it would be appropriate to ask:

  Which one of you two is the pedophile?

  It's also WTS policy to not disclose to any other congregation members the identity of any pedophiles in their midst. So how can they trust one another, particularly if they always choose to work in pairs, the way known pedophiles are expected to do?

  Love, Scully
• 

  dungbeetle

  I just think it's hilarious that Watchtower says "We never send pedophiles to the door alone".

  So they send Pedophiles IN PAIRS!!! Two by two like Noah's Ark!!!

  Bwahahahahaha
• 

  Nanoprobe

  Path & Leon,

  Your points are very well made and logical. However, we are talking about Influencing public opinion not winning a legal case at this point in time. This is an issue that leaves women outraged, inside and outside the congregation. We are talking about Ophra audiences and emotional topics. Don't believe logic will be much of a factor to mothers protecting children.
• 

  hawkaw

  WRT this door-to-door stuff, advocates have proven.

  1) No such WTS policy exists

  2) Witnesses who go with the child rapists to the door are untrained to supervise them

  3) Witnesses who go door to door with child rapists are usually not aware they are molestors. Why? Because the elders keep it all quiet. So how could a Witness know that he/she has to supervise (and not leave a child rapist alone) when doing field service (door-to-door) work.

  4) Child rapists actually go to the door by themselves

  5) The public is not aware that a "cunning" child rapist is observing the homeowner's children and their environment. In some cases a rapist may even do an "in home" bible study.

  Even the Catholics have not let their sicko priests out in public to evanglize.

  hawk

  Edited by - hawkaw on 10 June 2002 13:0:17

  Edited by - hawkaw on 10 June 2002 13:3:28
• 

  Panda

  Bill your questions are excellent. They will "stick" and that's what is important.

  Path you may not have had the unhappy experience of knowing sex offenders. The reason that they are registered and that the public is made aware of a sex offender in their midst is because they (the sex offenders) do repeat their crimes. There is truly no cure (ask a psychiatrist). Many Psychiatrists will not treat sex offenders because of this problem... it is a choice they (the sex offenders) make to do harm to others for gratification to themselves. I think that's important to remember.

  Bill has seen the wounds caused by the men who would like to remain hidden behind their man made position as elders. Child molesters molest because they can. They (as with other rapists) enjoy the power they have over their victims. What better place than a patriarchal religion for these men to commit their deeds?
• 

  outnfree

  I would like to offer you, the public, five simple questions to ask any Jehovah's Witness you meet to define what the truth is. -- Bill Bowen

  I, too, think the approach is to get this information into the hands of THE HOUSEHOLDER, so that the public pressure causes the number of converts to continue declining, and makes JWs wonder if the Society's policies DO need to change. But I have some comments to offer:

  I think LoyalLeon is right that most churches WOULD NOT inform their membership if a pedophile moved into their congregation. Then again, 'any other religious denomination' is not "GOD'S Organization" as far as Witnesses believe, and shouldn't "GOD'S Organization" be more concerned with protecting its sheep than 'any other religious denomination'? JW's are set apart, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession."

  Then, too, in 'any other religious denomination' one could freely tell friends (and enemies!) that one's child had been molested OR, if one wanted to be legally correct, that one had "reported Church Member So-and-So to the authorities" for having molested one's child and that they'd be wise to exercise extra special care until the matter was settled IN COURT. And one would also assume that one had the "absolute right" to go to those secular authorities in the first place! One would not have needed a special letter from the denomination's council to reinforce/clarify said assumption. One might even be encouraged by one's religious authority, as a parent, to OBEY FEDERAL LAW (in the US) by reporting the alleged abuse regardless of state or local law.

  I agree that it is difficult to know what to do within ANY congregation once a convicted pedophile has done his/her time and wishes to return to church. My personal belief is that pedophila is a breach of trust more heinous than even adultery (for which Jesus allowed divorce, leaving it up to the wronged partner to forgive and continue in the marriage or not) and thus the victim should be left alone to forgive or not ever forgive his/her abuser.

  The Christian church, being the "body of Christ" according to most denomination's beliefs, is supposed to represent God, and thus as a whole must be willing to forgive the repentant pedophile sinner. But forgiveness does NOT mean naivete, and neither does it mean allowing other children to be put in harm's way. One can try to 'love the sinner, hate the sin', but general forgiveness by a congregation does NOT mean that the reformed pedophile does not have to live with the consequences of his/her former action. A fornicator whose act of fornication resulted in a child is not excused from parental duties the rest of his/her life. A murderer is always a murderer -- one cannot resurrect the victim. The consequences of that one act took the life of another and impacted friends and relatives for the rest of their lives. That cannot be erased. In the same way, a pedophile who has been proven to have commited ONE ACT of pedophilia, must bear responsibility for that grievous action and live with the consequences, which will entail a reduced quality of life, no doubt. Trust issues will abound even within that person's religious community. So, even after time has been served and repentance shown, the congregation has a right to put up boundaries of acceptable behavior. (Notice I said 'the congregation' as in ALL of the congregation, not just the religious heirarchy putting private restrictions on the [even "only" one-time!] offender. Full membership meetings is where I'm going here.)

  Naturally, the above would apply to situations where a known molestor is trying to return to the same church where s/he worshipped prior to the molestation. Otherwise, how would anyone know? But if a member or two at the new church DID know, then they would be within their rights to 'spread the word'. It would be nice if they told the former pedophile that they intended to warn the congregation. To use a Watchtowerism, "a truly humble" former pedophile would have NO PROBLEM seeing sanctions, boundaries, and gossip (even informal shunning?!!!!) as part of the "harvest" from the sick and perverted seed sown years before. Dealing with it in a gracious way would be a "work symbolizing repentance."

  In fact, further to this, if the ALLEGED Witness pedophile were a "truly humble" innocent (AND convinced of his/her own innocence AND Jehovah's ability to act to protect him/her from injustice) then that Witness should have NO PROBLEM temporarily stepping down and "waiting on Jehovah" to clear his/her name. The accused would show "fellow feeling" for the misguided child who must somehow be confusing identities or suffering from psychological problems and would be CONFIDENT that his/her innocence would be revealed. Instead of looking at his/herself as a victim, s/he would be mature enough to cooperate fully with secular law enforcement -- in fact, would WELCOME investigation by secular law enforcement -- in an effort to "win back his/her brother (sister)" and keep a "good name" before Jehovah. The endurance and long-suffering displayed would be an example to all those [who were even aware] in the congregation that "suffering evil for one's brother (sister)" is "the greatest love of all."

  Many people today are skeptical of repressed memories and their veracity is open to endless debate. However, should an elder be accused of pedophilia by an adult victim years later, then he should be removed as elder. Why? Because elders are to be "free from accusation" and well thought of in the community OUTSIDE the congregation. As long as the cloud of possibly having abused children was hung over the brother's head, he could not scripturally continue to serve. This might result in injustice for some elders who are accused but who have no recourse in a court of law because the statute of limitations precludes the victim from pursuing legal action. Life is unfair, but not to worry -- Jehovah knows. Jehovah can read hearts.

  In closing, I would like to remind all parents reading this that they actually take the time to find and read their respective states'/country's Sex Offender Directory and be on guard for their children. I know I found the father of one of my children's classmates on the list. This enabled me to have more empathy for the child whom I believe was suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder as well as to protect my child from becoming another victim. You may be surprised who has been convicted, spent a short time in jail, and is now free to abuse again. Forewarned is forearmed!

  So, after all this, I think that Bill's idea was to inform the public by means of personal Letters to the Editor as he did. Only takes a few minutes.

  Thank you.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Thanks for your answer OutnFree (hey how are u anyway these days?

  I guess what I am trying to ask is: How does a Christian organization forgive child molesters who are repentant and have served their jail time, while at the same time protecting children in their midst? I don't believe permanent disfellowshipping would be consistent with Christian principles of forgiveness and I don't believe there is a satisfactory way of protecting children if these men (once they have served their sentences) are allowed back in to have active association with the brothers.

  I realize these situations are for the most part exceptional, but we do tend to talk about them as if they were common-place and the norm. What is the solution put forth by Silentlambs that satifies Christian principles and at the same time protects children? If it is unreasonable for these men to sit in a KH among children and it is unreasonable for them to share in the ministry, and I believe this is true, then are we are really saying they shouldn't be allowed to be JWs at all? If this is true, then what are the implications for Christianity as we know it?

  Since I no longer claim to be Christian, my position is easier to argue. If you are picking apart a policy while holding to Christianity then you must provide a means for an effective solution to harmonize with Christian doctrine. I can appreciate your position on reporting of crimes, but what happens once a criminal's "debt to society" has been paid and this person wishes to be an active Witness again?

  Path
• 

  dungbeetle

  OutnFree...

  1) Maybe most churches won't inform their congregations if a child molester moves into their congregation....HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS

  2) Would they expell/shun anyone that did.

  Pathofthorns:

  You just will not admit, concede, or even address here on this board the simple fact that ELDERS ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

  Elders are not qualified to decide if some one is a molester or not.

  Edlers are not qualified to decide if an accuser is telling the truth or not.

  And the bottom line is, THE ELDER ARRANGEMENT DOES NOT WORK. That's too much power and too little accountability.

  So maybe we can all agree on this:

  To the 77,000 elders in the United States:SHUT YOUR GO**AMN MOUTHS. You don't have the training, the experience, nor the RIGHT to judge me, or a pedophile, or a survivor. Bill Bowen's elders, and the several sets of elders IIII have had to deal with...F**K yourselves.

  Who needs these ass**oles. I hate to tell you this, elder a**holes, but the human race did mange to survive WITHOUT YOU for thosuands of years. Th eelder arrangement has left a trail of bodies for a hundred years .....

  oh screw it, I'm going to make an original post.