Jesus is wise? Don't make me laugh comforter!

by Faraon 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Faraon

  Was Jesus the wisest man who ever lived?

  Be serious man, dont read only Witchtower garbage. If you are a normal, well adjusted man who is not mind controlled, and want to find out the opposing side, and the real truth read Biblical Errancy - A reference Guide- by C. Dennis McKinsey, ISBN 1-57392-808-9 you can purchase it through Amazon.com

  One thing is clear about Jesus: He did not institute ALL these time and mind controlling rules that the Witchtower editorial & Real Estate Co. imposes on its sheep, like to have oral sex or not, to have premarital sex, etc. These things are not mentioned in the bible.

  1) Jesus made it clear that he came only to the Israelites.

  2) The garbage about baptize and teach is spurious.

  3) His kingdom was supposed to take place within the lifetime of his listeners.

  4) He was not perfect. He showed anger (Mark 3:5)

  5) Callously told a man not to bury his father, so he should sell Watchtowers, I mean preach the kingdom of the tribal Jewish god of war. (Luke 9:59-61)

  6) Called non-Jews dogs (Mathew 15:22-28)

  7) Talked in parables, so that people would not understand him. What kind of a teacher tries to keep his/her students in ignorance on purpose? Any teacher worth being called a teacher, will try to reach all of his/her students. (Mark 4:11-12)

  8) Claimed that a dead corn of wheat brings forth much fruit. This shows a gross ignorance of botany. (John 12:24)

  9) Claimed that a mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds, is the is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree. It is not the smallest of all seeds. Others are smaller. It is not the greatest among herbs when grown, and could not become a tree. So much for his knowledge of botany.

  10) Through his blaming illnesses on the devil and casting out in order to cure them, he probably caused more deaths by retarding the development of effective medicine. (Mat 17:18)

  11) He did not honor his parents, and parents in general.(Mat. 15:4 vs. Luke 11: 27-28, Mat. 12: 46-50, Mark 3: 31-35, Mat 23:9, Luke 2:48-49, Luke 14:26, John 2:4)

  12) He told his disciples to sell their garments and buy swords. Hardly peaceful teachings.

  13) He and his disciples were dirty and unwashed. They did not wash their hands.

  14) His own family thought he was crazy. This disproves any thought of them knowing he was the Messiah.

  15) Constantly called people fools, in contrast to his own command not to do so on Mat 5:22

  16) He, himself, said he was not good. (Mat. 19:17), but he called Joseph a good man. (Luke 23:50)

  17) Said in Mark 8:35 that whosoever shall lose his life for his sake and the gospels, the same shall save it. This is ridiculous because the gospels did not exist during his own life. And as most serious bible researches will tell you, Mark, Luke, Matthew and John did not come into existence until the latter half of the 2 nd century.

  18) Orders his disciples to love their enemies in Mat. 5:44, but calls the Pharisees and other people, generation of vipers, hypocrites, fools, serpents, thieves and robbers. What demonstrations of love!

  19) Teaches people that it is smart to defraud your employer (Luke 16:1-9)

  20) He had no manners

  21) Claimed not to have come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (Mat. 5:17-19). Yet he ignored

  a) The dietary laws (Mat. 15:11, Mark 7:15, 18-19)

  b) The laws requiring washing of hands (Mat. 15: 2-3, 20; Luke 11: 37-38)

  c) The restrictions as to what cant be done on the Sabbath. (Mat. 12:1-6, 8; Mark 2:23-28; Mat 12:10-13; Luke 13:10-16; John 5:8-11). A man was killed for breaking them.

  d) Law requiring fasting (Mat. 9:14-15, Mark 2:18-20

  e) Adultery laws by excusing an adulteress (See John 8:4-5, 7, 9-11 vs. Lev 20:10; Deut. 22:22

  f) Would not permit a divorced woman in Mat. 5:32; Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18. See Deut 12:1:4

  g) The old law of an eye for an eye.

  h) The laws regulating the observance of Jewish fasts by not washing and perfuming on Matt 6:16-18

  i) The laws allowing swearing of oaths (Mat 5:33-36 vs. Deut 6:13)

  j) Most important Deut 4:12

  22) I could go on and on, but people here, like me ,dont like to read long stories, and have more things to do. Like I said: Try to read other peoples side of the story, not only braindead materials.
• 

  SYN

  Excellent post dude! Sometimes I wish I could just go back and meet him, just so I could figure out EXACTLY what the hell he was going on about!

  He might have done things which weren't entirely in keeping with his image and purported existence, but he did set forth some principles that more people should live by, e.g. love your neighbour is good stuff and so forth!
• 

  Faraon

  SYN.

  Thanks, i try. I also would like to see what he was all about if he existed at all. As for the love your neighbor stuff, it was not his own saying, as it was already entered in the bible, and it is common sense. Note that when it says to love your neighbor, it refers to Jewish people, not all mankind. Otherwise he would not have called non-Jews names such as dogs. This is double hurtful because it was a little girl he was refering to.

  Leviticus 19 18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

  Edited by - faraon on 16 June 2002 0:16:33
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  Yerusalyim

  Farron,

  As you and Syn pat yourselves on the back for throughly trashing Jesus, your prejudice and ignorance of the facts show through. Here it is laid out for you item by item, you will not ofcourse, accept what I have to say, but that doesn't make it any less true.

  1. Jesus did indeed say that he came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but also claimed to be shepherd to other sheep (the nations) and sent his disciples with the good news (the gospel) to all Nations.

  2. What is your source of evidence for calling the Great Commission spurious?

  3. His kingdom became a reality in the lifetime of the disciples, I too am in this kingdom. The second coming was left open though as NO ONE KNOWS THE HOUR OR THE DAY.

  4. Scripture never makes the claim that Jesus was perfect only sinless. He was perfected in what he suffered. His anger was righteous anger.

  5. The man mentioned here, his father had not yet died, he was stalling, not wanting to make a commitment, this is what Jesus condemned.

  6. Jesus did this as a teaching point on faith, he subsequently helps the woman here.

  7. He talked in parables so the simple could understand the only ones who didn't were those wise in their own eyes (like you?)

  8. First this was SYMBOLIC of burial, the grain won't grow unless it falls and is buried, secondly, the grain of wheat technically is dead as all Photosynthesis has seized.

  9. Hyperbole on the part of Jesus, but again how many plants grow as big as the mustard bush from such a small seed? Besides, Jesus was teaching on spiritual matters not science.

  10. First, prove demon possesion is false. Second, the reason sickness and death entered the world was due to sin and corruption. You've set up quite the straw man, PROVE where faith in God has slowed the development of medicines.

  11. Show me where Jesus dishonors his parents or parents in general. Your bible quotes don't show this at all.

  12. This was done to fulfill prophecy. Jesus also stated that those who live by the sword (i.e. settle matters by violence as the first option) shall die by the sword.

  13. You've shown no evidence that they were any dirtier than the rest of the people of that day.

  14. Again you're wrong, He wasn't meeting their expectations of what Messiah was to be. Besides only his Mother and step dad knew about his origins.

  15 Constantly called people fools? Where?

  16. Jesus didn't say he wasn't good, he said only the Heavenly Father is good, this is one of Jesus claims to divinity. Joseph isn't called good but RIGHTEOUS, and this is imputed because of his faith.

  17. The gospel isn't the written word, but the message that Jesus was handing down YOU are being ridiculous.

  18. Sometimes love requires one to tell harsh truths.

  19> The parable of the dishonest steward has to be understood in the business practices of the day. The only dishonesty on the part of the steward was squandering his masters property. When the steward has those that owe his master change their bills he is deducting the usurious charge he tacked on for his personal (the steward's) enrichment. THe master still got all that was due him, it was the steward that would forgo what he added on only. The master commends him for this.

  20.He had no manners? What is your source for this?

  21. Your utter ignorance of the 613 Commandments that make up the Mosaic Law is quite evident here.

  a) What dietary law did Jesus violate? He simply said it wasn't the food that defiled by the evilness in the heart when one purposefully violated God's Law.

  b) Show me in the Hebrew Scritpures this law that requires the washing of hands? It's not among the 613 Commandments. Rather, the washing of hands was a requirement found in Talmud the oral tradition, NOT in the mosaic law. Not Jesus challenge to them when he speaks of their violation of an actual commandment (found in Exodus 20).

  c) Read carefully the requirements of Sabbath and see that the disciples nor Jesus violated them, and that more imporatantly the Sabbath was made for MAN'S benefit, not man for the Sabbath's The disciples did not labor, but rather had a snack. The Pharisees considered it "harvesting" and called it work, yet would violate the sabbath rest in order to rescue a work animal, or worse yet, have booths constructed by gentile slaves every 1000 meters or so in order to be able to travel further than the sabbath allowed.

  d) When were the Jews required to fast? There is only one fast mandated in God's law, Leviticus 23:27 proclaims the fast of Yom Kippur. What was being discussed was the Pharisees fasting twice a week as a sign of piety and the disciples NOT fasting when not required. Again your ignorance of the law is telling.

  e) It is mercy God requires, not sacrafice. The pharisees were trying to trap Jesus, NOTICE the GUY guilty of adultery was not brought forward. WHY? Jesus took the punishment for her sin on himself so it was unnecessary that she be stoned.

  f) Again Jesus FULFILLED the Law noting that divorce was allowed only because of the hardness of the heart of Israel. Even then, the Law states that something INDECENT must be found in the wife to divorce her.

  g) An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth were RESTRICTIONS on violence and revenge not MANDATES of action against transgressors Jesus simply points out that forgiveness is the better way, especially since he takes upon himself the punishment and guilt of all sinners.

  h) Here again your ignorance of the Law is quite pronounced. There is NO REQUIREMENT in the Law that one not wash or perfume themselves when fasting. Jesus is here saying that any benefit one might have gotten from an unmandated fast is null because of fasting (or doing other religious acts) so that others see you and praise you for it.

  i) If one always tells the truth and is known for truthfullness all the silliness mentioned in Matt 6:33-36 is unnecessary.

  j) Duet 4:12 states, "Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; there was only a voice. So, what's your point here, or did you mean 4:13 about keeping the commandments. Jesus DID keep the commandments and gave them their fullest meaning.

  22. Yes, you could go on and on misquoting, mis citing, and defaming Christ.
• 

  Yerusalyim

  BTTT
• 

  Yerusalyim

  BTTT one more time. Come on Farron and SYN talk about it!

  Butt Touching Toe Tapper
• 

  Satanus

  The bible jesus said some eternal truths. But it's not like he was the only one who knew them. I would like to see a booklet of jesus' words (and nothing else) compared to the best literature in science, psychiatry, sutras, the greek classics, mystical literature, etc. This would show clearly just how wise jesus was(n't).

  SS
• 

  gumby

  yerusalem:

  "His kingdom became a reality in the lifetime of the disciples",.....what do you mean by...reality? Explain please. Are you talking about the same kingdom he talked about?

  His anger was righteous anger. So are WE allowed to have rightous anger.....explain?

  "He talked in parables so the simple could understand ". Were all the others too smart? What do you mean? It seems there were many occasions where even his own diciples didn't understand him.

  "The man mentioned here, his father had not yet died." I thought the man said his father DID die and he was going there to bury him?

  "Show me where Jesus dishonors his parents or parents in general." I think it's when his parents were worried sick they couldn't find him and he said "you should have known" I would be in my fathers house. How would you react to your son if you scolded him for not sticking by you....and he replied as did Jesus?

  Sorry for pickin on you. I thought most of your arguments were good.....but some were a bit weak.

  Farons arguments were straight from the book that shaped his stance on this. No? Read a good apologist comments on some of your reasoning , Faron, and see if your thoughts makes as much sense
• 

  JanH

  Yeru,

  I agree that some of your rebuttals have merit. It seems to be the case that gospels portray Jesus as not violating the Mosaic laws, but merely the added rules of the Jewish clergy in his day.

  1. Jesus did indeed say that he came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but also claimed to be shepherd to other sheep (the nations) and sent his disciples with the good news (the gospel) to all Nations.

  There are contradictory statements there indeed. He explcitly commanded the disciples to only go to Israelites. Statements contradicting his ethnocentristism are generally thought to be later traditions.

  2. What is your source of evidence for calling the Great Commission spurious?

  Like, that the man was dead when he supposedly uttered it?

  3. His kingdom became a reality in the lifetime of the disciples, I too am in this kingdom. The second coming was left open though as NO ONE KNOWS THE HOUR OR THE DAY.

  Jesus explicitly stated, several times, that the end of the world would come to the generation he was talking to directly.

  7. He talked in parables so the simple could understand the only ones who didn't were those wise in their own eyes (like you?)

  Ah, nice ad hominem.

  Considering how Christianity has changed during the centuries following its founders' death, and the confusion of secterianism ever since, it is a safe bet that Jesus' message was not well understood at any time. If there really was a central message.

  5. The man mentioned here, his father had not yet died, he was stalling, not wanting to make a commitment, this is what Jesus condemned.

  This is the excuse typically used by apologists who see Jesus' disregard for a man's feelings. The WTS uses this line, too. However, nothing in the text suggests the father was not dead. It is hard to imagine anyone saying "I have to bury my father" when the man is still alive.

  15 Constantly called people fools? Where?

  He said that if you called someone a fool, you would be guilty and go to hell. He also called the Pharisees "fools." Same word, also in Greek. It follows, then, that Jesus went to hell as a sinner.

  The Jesus of the gospels comes across as a thoroughly confused and inconsistent character, no doubt due to the fact that this is a character created over time by followers who constantly attributed their own ideas to the increasingly mythological sect founder.

  - Jan
• 

  2SYN

  Hi Yeru, I missed this thread for a while...hehe...I wasn't "trashing" Him (I know this is a sensitive subject for you...), like I said, I'd like to go back and meet him personally (if he existed, there are several schools of thought on that matter, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt), so that I wouldn't have to try and understand his teachings through a 2000 year-old book! I respect the fact that you base your religion on Him...