Alan,
You kicked some ass! Way to go. Friend just can't handle the "truth", even though he claims to have it.
PEDOPHILES are to WTS as flies are to honey?
by Focus 173 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Mim
Holy shit...I am blind. The only question I am left with is HOW do you defend the indefensible? My very best friend in the entire world, still is, was continually raped by her father from the age of two on. At one point he was an elder. Her Mom caught him in the act several times, nothing was said. She told me at the age of twelve, I told my mother, and staunch JW that she is she called me a liar and slapped my face. It was made very clear to me that if I ever said anything to anyone I would get beaten very badly. Others in the congregation knew at this time, she had told other people, and nothing was done or said. And we are NOT talking about just feeling around in the panties, but rape of a child by her father an elder, who then molested others in the congregation. He left after he got a 17 year old pregnant.
Hey larc...:) And AlanF...amazing stuff...and the gentleman who takes off after F*iend has my undying admiration. I mean that sincerly. I could go on about this from an academic perspective, my dissertation is on JW's and women, but I think reality works best and the above is pure, unadulterated reality. SO...how do you defend the indefensible? You don't that's how, unless you wish to class yourself with and bind yourself too, the religious slut that IS the WBTS.
Peace
mim -
Focus
Mim wrote on Mar 12, 2001 at 12:28:35AM:
The only question I am left with is HOW do you defend the indefensible?
Do as does the F iend Class. They have done so much Spiritual-Masturbation that they have lost their sight entirely!Of course it is not termed "defending". We all understand he is only trying to sincerely help, use his contacts, bring about changes gradually from within, hone our arguments, etc.
My very best friend in the entire world, still is, was continually raped by her father from the age of two on. At one point he was an elder. Her Mom caught him in the act several times, nothing was said. She told me at the age of twelve, I told my mother, and staunch JW that she is she called me a liar and slapped my face. It was made very clear to me that if I ever said anything to anyone I would get beaten very badly. Others in the congregation knew at this time, she had told other people, and nothing was done or said. And we are NOT talking about just feeling around in the panties, but rape of a child by her father an elder, who then molested others in the congregation. He left after he got a 17 year old pregnant.
Terrible. But if you recount the like, it is just an isolated incident, of no statistical significance, "one in a billion", etc. But when those of the F iend Class show you their ones, their examples serve as PROOF of """""policy""""" being understood correctly and applied! One rule for them, one for the R&F - and of course "a pox on the filthy, vomit-eating apostates"And AlanF...amazing stuff
Seconded...and the gentleman who takes off after F*iend has my undying admiration. I mean that sincerly.
I appreciate your sentiment, but your admirationof me is quite unwarranted. I just have this irrational dislike for fiends, liars, rogues, hypocrites, rascals, forgers, cheaters, spiritual-rapists and so on, coupled with a desire to search them out and engage them in battle. No wonder then that I figuratively hang about near the Bethel toilets where the F iend Class is often to be encountered even though Nathan isn't there on the pull any more.the religious slut that IS the WBTS
slut? Please, recognize the Great Whore for what she is. Do not praise Caesar by giving her lesser titles! She, together with her daughter harlots (the various Committees and Corporations of the Watchtower) comprises Babylon The Great, the Mother of Abominations of the earth.--
Focus
(Revelation Class)TO FIND WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' BORG, VISIT :-
http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm
http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/TheList.zip
http://www.concordance.com/watchtower.htm
http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/the_list.html
http://www.3dom.freeserve.co.uk/main.htm -
larc
My opinion,
I did not comment here, because I was already on the side of JT, Focus, and Alan F. JT and I have already had much dialogue with Xandit who is from a place I have never seen - a world where you take the beliefs "with a grain of salt." Friend says that the religion can be changed from within - it will never happen. As someone wrote earlier, Xandit and Friend would make good attornys. I agree. No blood in their veins, a cold heart, and belief in the WT written word as gospel, and the only force in a poor Witness life. I feel sorry for anyone who buys their crap.
Friend, perhaps I was too hard on you in my statement about being heartless, but believe me you will never be able to change the WT system. Why don't you get out where you can do more good.
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waiting
When I first came to the web, as an angry jw - Friend visited our forum. The Bible Discussion Forum was pretty much his. We argued with him relentlessly. He shot us down for the most part (Frenchy withstanding the best.)
Friend did not shoot us down with lies, he shot us down - for the most part -with our own words. With our own lack of qualifying statements. He made us defend every statement - and for at least several of us - he was a good teacher on how to articulate our argument against aggressors. Being myself - I told him I didn't need him to teach me and even if did need a teacher, wouldn't want him. He taught me anyway.
And I appreciate it. In a very guarded way, I have the utmost respect for Friend and for Focus. Very articulate men. Sometimes I agree with neither - but I doubt if I could successfully win an argument against either of them.
Can the WTBTS be reformed, changed, go the way of mainstream religion?
That probably is anyone's guess, but I'm not hanging around with hopes held high.waiting
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waiting
Hello Alan,
1 What did PO White tell you about the 1995 and 1997 articles? Especially in relation to your complaints.
1. I'm sorry. It was Circuit Overseer White visiting me at my request with PO from my congregation. We had previously discussed my daughter's treatment at the hands of the elders. I argued just as you have - that people don't recall all sorts of things - until there is a reason for recall. He said he was sorry, but that's the way the Society was viewing it - anything said to be forgotten was considered unreliable. My daughter had forgotten - or refused to remember - my brother's sodomy of her for years - until someone asked her point blank. She responded with truthfulness. I know, because I called my brother and he confirmed his acts. And then the Ministerial Servant issue.2 No, I haven't posted anywhere else lately about this issue. The last ones were on the old H2O, but it was only a small part of the discussions that have gone down on this board. Given the way the new H2O is going, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be a waste of time to post anything new there. Any comments?
As for the '97 article - I met same CO & PO at my door with WT and Bible - just like before. CO White explained how a molester could be reinstated and then watched. I argued it was nearly impossible to watch that good and elders might not do this. He asked me: "Do you think elders are that stupid?" It took me a moment to seriously respond: "I guess not."
So the brunt of the watching was to be done by local elders. Any memory not remembered for any length of time, from what I gathered from CO, was a *repressed memory* otherwise it would never have been forgotten. Thus unreliable - not even worthy talking to the victim.
On Randy's Sexual Abuse Site, there are subjects as repressed memory and mpd/did. I've read them - among other books, pro & con. The issue is still unresoved except for one basic fact:
My divorce lawyer specialized in defending people against spurious charges resulting from such unscrupulous therapists and he told me about some of his cases. But that doesn't discount the many people who have had real repressed memories come back.
I fell into the hands an ignorant therapist - a female jw from Boca Raton, Fl. Highly recommended, right credentials, nevertheless ignorant, biased, and capable of much harm.I, for one, would love to read and/or participate in a discussion of memory - all kinds. It's a complicated issue. Whether here or H20.
waiting
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Focus
larc wrote on Mar 12, 2001 at 2:07:08AM:
I was already on the side of JT, Focus, and Alan F .. Friend says that the religion can be changed from within - it will never happen. As someone wrote earlier, Xandit and Friend would make good attornys. I agree. No blood in their veins, a cold heart, and belief in the WT written word as gospel, and the only force in a poor Witness life. I feel sorry for anyone who buys their crap.
Xandit is just a hit-and-run JW-supporter with no real substance to him. Demonstrate that you know what you are talking about, and off he runs to spread his "Spiritual-Pedophilia" elsewhere: just like the strategy at the door-to-door "kingdom-preaching and disciple-making" (i.e. book-/mag-selling and con-artistry) - when you meet someone who knows his stuff, move along and hope you find someone weak, or hurt, or in need of company, and then swoop.
F iend is another type of creature altogether. I don't buy its "I am helping you by making you more rigorous" stuff. The reason I don't buy it is:
(a) The Church of $cientology used the same technique to infiltrate the anti-cult movement working against it, to take over parts of it (using the courts) and then to try and destroy the remainder with a mixture of propaganda and threats (not all of which may have been within the law). It sent out three or four of the F iend Class too.
(b) F iend employs all sorts of improper techniques in its argumentation that would not be permitted in legal cases under any system of jurisprudence known to me - so it is not preparing us for the like.
(c) If, on the other hand, it is claimed to be done to help us win the propaganda war - putting weasel-worded pro-WTS material (some of it up to the standards of the writing department in terms of sheer deceptivity), upon which AF and I waste hours of time writing refutations and counter-arguments, out there does not assist us, full stop. The WT does enough of that already, and material out there countering what the WTS actually prints is much more valuable. After all, dubs reading Friend will regard him as a loyal dub when he is winning but dismiss him as a stooge or a plant when he does not win. Honing our technique? It does not matter very much how we word our anti-WTS material (the volume and variety of it speaks volumes - not too many mindless drones on this side): the response (IF ANY) that the WTS eventually makes within its own publications will significantly distort the case made against it, create strawmen etc - and will have very little to do with the criticism actually levied. A recent illustration was Penton's complaint about the WT's revisionism of its record in dealing with the Nazis: the WTS answered its own questions, not his ones.. Always wiser! In fact, F iend's scribbles probably give one or two on the Bethel writing staff more ideas for future cheating and weaselling.
(d) If it is being done to show the WTS how wrong/misguided it is - hahahahahaha! One is dealing with a Filthy, Degenerate Spiritual-WHORE, well set in its ways after over 121 years of such shameless Whoredom. It understands only one language, and that is $$$.
(e) If it (the F iend Class) is just well-meaning and mistaken i.e. a fool, well, it is no use to us!Friend, perhaps I was too hard on you in my statement about being heartless, but believe me you will never be able to change the WT system. Why don't you get out where you can do more good.
But he postulates he is our "inside man" - LOL! - and is doing good. With such Friends, who needs enemies?--
Focus
(Recognize the Enemy! Class) -
silentlambs
I wish to congratulate your efforts on speaking the truth when it comes to issues of molestation within the wt. I have read with interest the posts of friend and his apparent misguided and misinformed perception of the reality that faces so many victims. I continue to talk to victims with many new coming forward, sad to say all have the same story, a story that reeks of the stench of wt policy. These people who live in brooklyn have no idea the monster they have created. One poor sister who called me related, "I was promised when the person who molested me was df that he would never be reinstated until he apologized to me for what he had done. six months later i found he had been reinstated i was so upset i called the wt to ask why, the response? 'none of your business, when i called the elders who sat on the committee they said the wt instructed them to tell me it was none of my business."
The victim is victimized again, yet they have created a person who will speak on any forum and in any court to tell what horrid ways she has been treated. do you think she is the only one?? hundreds maybe thousands before it is over, i say the lambs will roar the truth and wt will have no place to hide the grevious atrocities they have perpetrated on so many.
Thank you Focus and Alan for not allowing the reality to become obscure by insideous efforts of misguided people.
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larc
The Amish
I started a thread that gives a web site for an entire book about the Amish. Behind their peaceful religious exterior are horrendous problems that have a chilling similarity to the JW situation. It is a griping story.
David Yoder's strategy for fighting both the religion and the social services system might be useful to look at. He really learned how to get the lawyers, social workers, and politcians off their complacent asses.
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Focus
waiting wrote on Mar 12, 2001 11:44:42AM
Friend .. We argued with him relentlessly. He shot us down for the most part (Frenchy withstanding the best.) Friend did not shoot us down with lies, he shot us down - for the most part -with our own words. With our own lack of qualifying statements. He made us defend every statement - and for at least several of us - he was a good teacher on how to articulate our argument against aggressors. Being myself - I told him I didn't need him to teach me and even if did need a teacher, wouldn't want him. He taught me anyway. And I appreciate it.
I have stated my views on Friend and his motivation in my reply to larc just above this. Do you have any comments, please?
In a very guarded way, I have the utmost respect for Friend and for Focus. Very articulate men. Sometimes I agree with neither - but I doubt if I could successfully win an argument against either of them.
But I'm just a pussycat - see the thumbnail!Can the WTBTS be reformed, changed, go the way of mainstream religion? That probably is anyone's guess, but I'm not hanging around with hopes held high.
Not for a long, long time - it is founded on being radically different from the mainstream, irrespective of the "another fine mess you've got me into" culture that results, and so it continues. The Watchtower will only change when the $$ argument is in favor of change, and, put simply, it isn't. The status quo brings in more revenue than would a damping-down and cooling-off: after all, slaves in fear of imminent destruction if they disobey, conned into believing they have something totally different from anyone else ("we are so clever to see what the worldlings miss") and hence feeling special enough to endure the servitude and submission, are one hell of a hard act to beat!So, the WT will not change unless we make it change..
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Focus
(Consecrated Child of Christ Class)