PEDOPHILES are to WTS as flies are to honey?

by Focus 173 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

waiting

hey isp,
Of course, the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention the actions of one of its former members.
Time and expense are only considerations in a civil suit as you know the state takes over the expense of pursuing criminal actions.- isp
This is totally opposite of the following court case that just happened - per Randy's thread "She Refused to Testify - Typical"
By DAVID A. LIEB .c The Associated Press
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) - A prosecutor asked the state Supreme Court on Tuesday to allow him to subpoena religious leaders who listened to a man who allegedly confessed to sexually abusing two children.
Texas County Prosecutor Doug Gaston wants to use Robert Eisenhouer's statements as evidence against him in a rape and sodomy case.
Eisenhouer's wife told investigators that Eisenhouer confessed his sexual involvement with the children to church elders, Gaston said. But she declined to testify, and the church officials' testimony was needed as proof of the confession.
A judge previously quashed subpoenas against the two Jehovah's Witness church officials, saying the state law that Gaston relied upon violates the federal Constitution's First Amendment protection of freedom of religion.
The law says that any legal shield for communication - except that between an attorney and client - does not apply to situations involving suspected child abuse or neglect.

But Gaston asked the Supreme Court to overturn that decision.
``If we compel the elders of the church to testify against the church members, doesn't that in some way affect the exercise of their religious beliefs?'' Supreme Court Judge Michael Wolff said.
``It absolutely does,'' Gaston replied, but he said it is a permissible infringement because the intent of the state law is to protect children.
Joy Hutcheson, an attorney for the church officials, said the law ``directly attacks religion.''
AP-NY-02-27-01 2033EST
By that woman's refusal to tesify truthfully to what she knew and heard - she wasted her time, her husband's time, the victims' time, the parents of the victims' time, the prosecutor's time and the Court's time. Time translates into money. All the adults would presumably have jobs - thus having invested time and money into this case. Even if they didn't have jobs outside of the home - it has been women's argument for years that the duties they do at home are necessary and worth money - even the WTBTS said this in articles.
Time and money are not stated by the WTBTS as only the actual time and cost of the case. The article you quoted said:
time and expense
That could mean any type of time and money surrounding the case - any case. There is always personal time and expense invested in a case - any case. This is a strong consideration for anyone wishing to bring charges against another person.
The accusations have been brought against the WTBTS that they have over 50 lawyers on a less than minimum wage payroll. The person going against them must either take time off work for depositions, doctor's appointments, therapists appointments (for molested children), etc. These cases string out for years. Takes a lot of time and money on any/all involved.
The WTBTS never stipulated only the time and expense of the court case only. You're the one interpretating their written word.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 3 March 2001 14:43:38
ISP

Hi Waiting
I don't see what the problem is. In a criminal case the state is at the helm. It says whether the case will be tried on the likelihood of sucess.Time and money are not a consideration by the state.That doesn't mean that no one elses time or money will be expended. Time and expense will be incurred. The difference is you have no choice.
You may not want to co-operate with the authorities. So what? You will likely be subpoenaed. If you fail to assist likely you will face legal action yourself for contempt of court. In the case you quoted the Judge at first instance has not allowed the prosecution to subpoena 2 individuals. It is going to the Supreme Court who will decide on the matter.
The WT is quite clearly talking about brothers pursing civil remedies where you have a choice as to whether you pursue the case or not. Such cases can be very expensive and time consuming which is always a consideration.
The article has no direct bearing on matters of criminality. I
Hope that helps.
ISP
SixofNine

ISP, Friend...
I really wish you would get thee to the righteous side of this issue.
It would be a real shame if your good work on the blood issue (and Friend, your work on the blood issue was the truth that set me free, btw) was completely undone in a pissing contest over who can retain the most anal retentivity.
Anyone who has been a JW for more than 2 minutes can understand perfectly how this pedophile issue can be (and evidently often times is) a real problem with the organization as it is set up, and as it is run.
Get that? "as it is set up, and as it is run". Neither of you are ignorant of the above. The evil at the top (the way it is set up) screws over lives at the bottom (the way it is run).
I could get specific about some of your arguments, but I will leave that to others for now. Meanwhile, there is a problem. Get on the side of the solution, or go shoot yourself in the head. Choose one, but don't waste precious time and expense trying to hammer out who can come up with the absolute mostest literal*, mostest legalistic** translation of a 73 QFR. You'll just shoot yourself in the foot doing that.
If Focus has slapped you a bit too hard for your pride to swallow, then listen to JT. He hasn't slapped you at all, but he has pointed out the truth about how the WTBS, the org, the GB, JW's, JW-dom, etc., whatever you want to call it, works (and it is all part and parcel, fraction even, of the same beast). Isn't that the truth to focus on?
Ps. Doesn't it boggle the mind that 21st century Christians are reduced to not only worrying as much as ever about the proper translation of the Bible, but also have to try and "translate" QFR's and study articles, etc?
* literally: absolute unyeilding literalness, most-er than most, intransient most-ocity
** exceedingly most; legalistic-ality squared,
Edited by - SixofNine on 4 March 2001 10:36:35
ISP

Hi 6,
I think we can make all the relevant points re child abuse, like you have without reference to this QRF. Which is my point. I don't think this QFR supports the contention re. the topic title or where I've indicated. The topic title is framed as a question so what is the problem.
Re. 'legalistic' points, there used by both sides and when you're using them your beating them at their own game and when they do its obfuscation!I am not an apologist by any means but whats the point of nodding ya head to stuff that isn't right. I've done enough of that.
ISP
Edited by - ISP on 3 March 2001 20:40:10
Friend

SixofNine
If Focus has slapped you a bit too hard for your pride to swallow…
You have got to be kidding! Because Focus speaks in loud and accusatory language do you think that that amounts to strong conclusions and sound thinking? If so then you are sadly mistaken. The only slapping that could happen on a forum such as this stems from good argumentation, and so far Focus has demonstrated very poor reasoning skills. He is no more than a small irritant to those who allow his distastefullness or ignorance to annoy them.
… Isn't that the truth to focus on?
As for what we should focus on, that would be the truth of a matter, which is the very reason for my participation here and elsewhere. My only reason for commenting on this particular thread was to correct a defective assertion, one which Focus offered in the first place! Do you think that errant criticisms correct anything? If not then you should understand the need to adjust them so that corrective initiatives can have their full affect.
Regarding how issues related to child abuse are handled among JWs and related Society policy, I am keenly aware of both. The main problem boils down to the Society insisting that elders deal with such matters when many (if not most) are ill-equipped for the task. Problems stemming from that include an entire array of hurtful mistakes regarding questions of confidentiality and what that means, reporting concerns, seeking competent medical advice, and the list goes on. Mind you, I am not laying the blame necessarily upon those unqualified elders but rather the Society for insisting that they deal with problems beyond their abilities or else making sure that they are trained before such insistence! Of course, there is an entirely separate set of problems associated with rude and self-righteous elders who essentially act as bullies. In their case too, the Society bears responsibility. But in all of this, it is not necessarily the subject specific policies of the Society that are to blame but rather the Society’s management policy, that is, how they go about training and charging elders with various tasks and how they determine elder’s qualifications. That is where the real problem lay on the subject at hand.
If you find my comments about blood truthful then you should realize that I do not at all mind disagreeing with the Society wherever and whenever that is necessary. This subject of child abuse is no different in that respect; I will lay the blame where it belongs and will do so for valid reasons. If on this subject you find yourself enamored with Focus’ assertions on this thread then I strongly recommend that you reconsider your own reasoning applied.
Friend
Edited by - Friend on 3 March 2001 20:39:6
JT

6 of 9 says:
Anyone who has been a JW for more than 2 minutes can understand perfectly how this pedophile issue can be (and evidently often times is) a real problem with the organization as it is set up, and as it is run.
Get that? "as it is set up, and as it is run". Neither of you are ignorant of the above. The evil at the top (the way it is set up) screws over lives at the bottom (the way it is run).
#########
excellent points;;
you have put it in a Nutshell - it matters not what the WT says , but what the wt does esp in the area of the Mindset that it fosters-
WT is like a person who throws a rock and hides their hand-
they have demostrated for yrs that they will plant a seed and sit back and watch it grow and all the time knowing full well about it
as soon as it goes bad they then will sit back and say much like the TV Character on FAMILY MATTTERS "Erikle"
DID I DO THAT !!!!!!!!
while Friend is a good man who finds himself in a tough situation- he lacks the ability or has decided not to see beyond the Technical-
when i was at bethel i knew this bro named David Sinclair- he worked in the Executive Offices down the hill
Now this bro was a "REAL SOCIETY MAN"
HE had the ability to split an atom 35 ways and lay all the pieces out on a table for you- so many bro can get very technical due to thier WT Training over the yrs esp bethelites and traveling bro
all the while in the real world that the avg jw lives in all they know is "The Society said something bout not going to court"
and that is all they need or want to know
we used to have a DO named JC Howard and he had this phrase that he used all the time when dealing with one of those areas where the society may have not come right out and said yes or no
"What way is the Society LEANING"
and if you were a "Mature" christain / Real Society Man YOU COULD FIGURE IT OUT
so i just love reading Friend's post
in fact i often show them to NONJW who are amazed at the detailed information that he uses just to say it ok for you FART now
smile
just my 2
JT
JT

Friend says:
Mind you, I am not laying the blame necessarily upon those unqualified elders but rather the Society for insisting that they deal with problems beyond their abilities or else making sure that they are trained before such insistence! Of course, there is an entirely separate set of problems associated with rude and self-righteous elders who essentially act as bullies. In their case too, the Society bears responsibility. But in all of this, it is not necessarily the subject specific policies of the Society that are to blame but rather the Society’s management policy, that is, how they go about training and charging elders with various tasks and how they determine elder’s qualifications. That is where the real problem lay on the subject at hand.
##########
you are 100% correct --the problem lies with the WT
for decades they have built the elders up to the point where they make elders along with the congregation feel that these guys are on par with Moses- smile
JR put it very well they are "volunteers who are untrained"
i recall how often they would feed into your mind that as an elder you are getting the best training in the world
since it is coming thru God's very own mouth pc. YEA RIGHT
just this PM i was speaking to a former elder and we were discussing how the avg elder is chosen based on how many hours he turns in.
i consider myself to be a pretty sharp person and yet each Jan i dreaded being the SEC in my hall with the responsibilty of reviewing the Medical directive and durable power of attorney
for i knew that after the meeting there would be publishers who would be inquiring about that:
APPORVED LIST AND
DISAPPROVED list of blood PARTS THAT the Writing Dept came up with
as we were talking we could not help but think what in the world must it be like to be in a congo IN SOME BACKWOODS AREA where the PO has a 6th grade education and the avg pub has a 4th grade level
and yet they are to make life and death choices based on material that they don't have the foggiest IDEA is all about.
elders have no training in areas of Emotional problem.
as Leon Weaver told us at our elders school one time
95% of all problems can be handled if we make sure that the publishers do the following:
1. attend meetings reg
2 keep up with all their literature
3 be out there knoocking on doors
yes in wt world this is the cure all and be all of all problem
as the wt has stated and i can't find it at the moment
by doing these 3 things your problem may not go away but they will receded into the background.
if you were to tell any Professional person that all a victim needs to do is the 3 steps above and wait on Jah and the new system is around the corner
they would laugh you out of thier office
so much for being "Spirit Directed"
just my 2
JT
waiting

/Hey JT,
the avg jw lives in all they know is "The Society said something bout not going to court"
and that is all they need or want to know
Lord, I've heard and said things like this for 30 years. A lot of us would never bother to look up *exactly* what the Society said - too much work, but we knew it was negative anyway - so that was good enough for us.
1. attend meetings reg
2 keep up with all their literature
3 be out there knoocking on doors
yes in wt world this is the cure all and be all of all problem
That's another popular one in this neck of the woods. We have 7 elders. Not one of them any education beyond high school. But how unnecessary if you've got the best training in the world.
Thanks for the post.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 3 March 2001 21:37:1
expatbrit

Friend:
please keep in mind that you equivocate Society policy with actions of local congregations; they are not always one and the same.

I do equivocate WT society policy with the actions of local congregations. This is because society HQ is kept well aware of what happens at local levels by CO's etc. So when there is a widespread policy (a policy can be simply an adopted course of action rather than a written legal document) being exercised at local level (e.g. coercive pressure not to involve secular authorities), it is reasonable to conclude that the society is well aware of this, and concurs with it's continuation. To quote a recent magazine "silence implies consent". In fact, with it's magazine articles emphasizing "not bringing reproach upon Jehovah" by involving secular authorities in criminal matters ("minor" and "serious" crime distinctions are not made in the literature), and with it's demonising the secular authorities as part of Satan's system, the society creates this local policy.
On the subject of the actions of elders: the society is responsible for all action of elders performed in their capacity as elders, period.
To illustrate: I, as an employer, often send out my employees to clients. I do not know all of the actions that person will take at the clients. For all I know, they may spend the entire day using the client's computers to look at pornography. But, because I placed that employee as my agent at the client, I must assume the ultimate responsibility and consequences for all of the actions of that employee while he or she acts in that capacity.
If elders are incompetent; if they do not follow the society's printed policy; if they do not understand the society's policies or sincerely misapply them: the society is still ultimately responsible and must accept the consequences.
For a fact the Society does not view it as spiritual weakness that a JW would report a serious crime to legitimate law enforcement officials whether the offender is a JW or not.
I have to flat-out disagree here. The fact that elders are instructed to compulsorily report serious crimes only when there is a legal requirement demonstrates the society's preference: to not have such things reported. Someone reporting when not absolutely required by law will certainly be considered spiritually weak.
If you were a parent who learned that your child had been sexually abused by an adult (JW or not), would you want the prerogative to report or not, or would you rather someone else hold that prerogative?
My answer is simple. In situations such as the one you describe, there should be no prerogative on whether to report or not. It should be compulsory at all times. Given the nature of these offenders, there is a high probability that they will abuse another victim. To not report is to endanger other children.
To reclarify the point in question here: does the society have more than one policy regarding reporting of child abuse?
The society creates one policy (course of action) in the congregations while espousing another policy (written) to the outside world. They do indeed use semantics and half-truths which only JW's will understand e.g. saying "a known child abuser" rather than "a child abuser" (this has been discussed before on other threads).
Finally, thank you for your considered and reasoning reply. This is an emotionally loaded subject. All the more important for it to be considered without resorting to name-calling and insults.
Expatbrit.
TR

Since the assertion has been made that the local elder's actions and the Society's policies aren't always one in the same, is it known how many elders are removed for their bad advise? Or their correct advise that goes against the Society? In my experience, I've never seen an elder removed. I've seen elders step down for their own reasons, but not because of the quality of their councel to the congregation.
My point is, it seems that the WTS is in between a rock and a hard place. They tell the elders how to perform, yet the elders are on their own, from what I understand. If elders are removed, the WTS would have to admit at least some guilt in the matter. If elders are not removed, then it shows that elders act in accord with the Society. This also would show guilt on the part of the Society for letting the wrong actions take place. After all, the WTS published the book that the elders have to follow. This is the problem that big religion gets into when trying to wield authority over a many and diverse flock.
How does the WTS reconsile elders "being on their own", yet trying to enforce the WT laws? It seems like more WTS doublespeak to me.
TR

PEDOPHILES are to WTS as flies are to honey?

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