US Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional? (page 2)

Fredhall

Puffsrule,

What are you talking about? I have seen many kids who said the Allegiance, yet they don't know what they are saying and don't know all the words to it. So, are you going to ask them to leave the country?

MrMoe 2

I also support the right of folks to burn the flag. As much as I dislike those who are doing it, freedom of expression is an important concept that is more valuable to me than my personal dislike for the idiots that burn the flag.

*humph*

Only way I disagree with you on this is... if the flag burners reside in the USA, then they need to move somewhere else.

teenyuck

Sorry-I will clarify

The IT is the decision the Ninth Circuit ruled on. The TV people all think the decision will go to the Supreme court and be struck down. The problem now is do they stop the pledge in the ninth circuit and kids elsewhere will be reciting it? That issue came up.

Know what irks me about all this? It is that it appears to me that all of this effort to remove religion from every aspect of public life seems primarily aimed at removing one specific religion - Christianity. In many areas, courses in witchcraft are taught, courses is Islam and many other religious traditions. But I don't see anyone lining up to have these removed from the schools

I agree. I have become a theist since coming to this board. I do not agree that all mention of religion should be removed from school. I think it should be encouraged. Let kids see other religions; no matter what type. This opens people's eyes. Learning the history and dogma of a religion is not the same as studying it to become one of.

The political correctness of today is ridiculous. The vast majority of the US is christian and it is a part of the history. Ignoring it makes it seem unimportant.

However, although this added to the misery of being a JW child, I actually respect the Witnesses for standing up for their right not to salute the flag. I could live with that, my main issues are with the encouragement / peer pressure put on parents to force their children to go from door to door, marketing the snake oil of the Watchtower cult, as well as the forced meeting attendance and all other miserable aspects of being a JW child, including without limitation the denial of holidays and birthdays, prohibition against involvement with school activities (sports, clubs, etc.), discouragement of education, attempts to override governmental authority mandating blood transfusions for children when needed to sustain life, and the shunning of "worldly" family members and those who have left the cult, etc.. This cult sucks the happiness out of childhood, and leaves most unprepared to fit in outside the cult.

I agree. They did bring religious freedom to the US.

I hated being different. The fact that this suit was brought on because of the harm to the daughter from not saying the pledge is interesting. The news people need to talk to some ex-JW's who were raised in it. It made me more patriotic; when I left I could not wait to vote. When I voted the first time I felt really liberated.

teenyuck

Fred, you are starting a circular arguement.

If a child cannot understand the concept of "country" etc, then they cannot understand the concept of god.

I am talking about adults. For example, you. You are an adult and if called upon would deny going into the military to defend the borders. If you can understand the Watchtower and Awake (I keep forgetting you have a 4 yr college degree after reading them) then you can understand the freedom you have here.

Your freedom was brought upon the backs of all the US veterans who went to war and defended the country.

144001

Moe,

This country was founded upon dissent. Dissent is the key to the success of this country and the freedoms we all enjoy. Flag burning, however distasteful, is a form of dissent that deserves the protections it has under our Constitution. Those who would like to stifle dissent are the ones I'd like to see moving out of our country (not directed at you Moe, but at those who actually work against freedom of expression in this country).

Edited to add clarification

Edited by - 144001 on 26 June 2002 16:51:15

Edited by - 144001 on 26 June 2002 16:52:40

MrMoe 2

EDITED - sorry, I was drawing blood, starting flame war - removed comment -

Kisses,

Moe / aka OnePatrioticChic

Edited by - MrMoe 2 on 26 June 2002 16:37:22

144001

Edited to delete comments that weren't in the interests of promoting peace and harmony amongst the ex JW crowd.

Edited by - 144001 on 26 June 2002 16:42:15

Gopher

This makes me wonder, why were the words "UNDER GOD" (which is the key phrase being debated here) added to the Pledge of Allegiance by the U.S. Congress in 1954?

That era was a time of great fear of the communists. The fear was: there was a communist hiding under every bed, and one standing on each street corner. Paranoia was great, and it led to the McCarthy Congress hearings which led to a mass witchhunt of so-called "communist sympathizers" in Hollywood and elsewhere in the USA.

So was the addition of the "under God" phrase a reaction to the anti-communist hysteria of the time?

Why not simply remove the offending phrase, and have the pledge be what it was -- a testimony to one's patriotism??

Puffsrule you said,

The vast majority of the US is christian and it is a part of the history.

You may be correct, but "majority rules" is not how we frame civil rights in this country. "Majority rules" leads to suppression and oppression of minority groups, who should have the right to equal treatment without being forced to say in public (under God) what they don't actually believe. Loyalty to one's country should not be intermingled with a majority opinion on a controversial topic such as who God is or isn't...

This will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Edited by - Gopher on 26 June 2002 16:52:48

joannadandy

Why not simply remove the offending phrase, and have the pledge be what it was -- a testimony to one's patriotism??

Actually it's not the Under God part, which everyone thinks is the reason. But actually for Witnesses it's the whole not giving worship to anything other than Jehovah, and it's the same for Muslims, nothing is greather than Allah, and all praise must go to Allah. Not some flag, or country, I'm not sure but there are probably other nitty gritty religious groups that feel the same way, and removing Under God, isn't going to change their views on it.

Point being, they'll never make it manditory,--will NEVER happen! And frankly I wouldn't want them to. It's disgusting to have forced obidence and subjection on any level...which is what I think it is. Besides have you ever watched a bunch of kids say the pledge in school? It's a time waster. They have no idea why they are doing it, the words mean nothing to them--it's not about patriotism for them, and it's not explained to them. So if you are looking for cohesion under a flag--making kids say the pledge by itself isn't going to do that.

Edited by - joannadandy on 26 June 2002 16:57:46

Gopher

Ok Joanna --

YABBUT!!

The news article said that the reason the ninth circuit court of appeals made the ruling that the pledge is unconstitutional is because of the phrase "under God".

I know there are other issues with the pledge, but those are apart from today's news.

Goph

US Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

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