a seizure
Nice addition to the bible. No wonder it doesn't bother you to add gods.
Does the Society believe in the Trinity?
by Fatal Error 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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willy_think
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Fatal Error
And gave no thought to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God, but he humbled himself and took a slave's form, John says.
Aha, but he didn't exactely stop anyone calling him their God now did he?
I really don't think the author's aim was to prove or disprove the Trinity, he is obviously a Trinitarian! The point was to show that in his opinion, it was arguable as to whether the Society even know who God is, and that by showing indecision on such a fundamental issue, they surely cannot be deemed worthy spiritual teachers, let alone God's mouthpiece. If they're not sure who'se mouth to be transcribing from, well...could be absolutely anyone's, eh?
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UnDisfellowshipped
This looks like a Great Thread!
Here is a Thread I started about the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA in Revelation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3
Also, here are a few Watchtower Quotes:
What does the Watchtower say about WORSHIPING JESUS CHRIST:
Watchtower November 1879 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):
"His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'"
(The Bracketed Comment about Michael was in the original)The Watchtower Reprints, March 1880, Page 83:
"And although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him (Jesus Christ), it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshipped him. - Matt. 28: 9, 17"
The Watchtower Reprints, April 15th 1893, Page 1515:
"It is since his resurrection that the message has gone forth - 'All power in heaven and in earth is given unto me.' (Matt. 28:18) Consequently it is only since then that he could be called the Almighty (as in Rev. 1:8)"
The Watchtower Reprints, July 15th 1898, Page 2337:
"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God."
The Watchtower Reprints, May 15th 1892, Page 1410:
"to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong"
Zion's Watchtower July 15th 1898 Issue:
Worshipping Jesus Christ is a duty of the believers
The Finished Mystery (SS-7) (1917 Edition):
Page 15:
"....I am THE Alpha and I AM ALSO THE Omega. - Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last letter, of the Greek alphabet. The Beginning and the Ending. -Our Lord's great honor is shown in that He was not only the first of God's creation, but the last. From this we are to understand that the great Jehovah did not directly employ His own power in creating either men or angels; but that He delegated His power to His Only-begotten Son. -Z. '93-115; Rev. 1:4; 16:5-7."
Page 188:
"Michael, - 'Who as God,' the Pope"
Page 318:
"....And He (said) SAITH unto me, (it is done,) I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.-" It was the Father's good pleasure that the Blessed One, the Only Begotten of the Father, should accomplish the entire program of redemption and restitution;"
The Watchtower August 15th 1941 Issue, Page 252:
"the Father will see to it that all creation shall worship the Son"
Make Sure of All Things Book (1953 Edition), Page 85:
"Christ to Be Worshipped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake."
The Watchtower January 1st 1954 Issue, Page 31:
"Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven."
Watchtower July 15th 1959 Issue, Page 421:
"Do not erroneously conclude that Christians are to worship Christ; that is not what he taught."
"The Word Who Is He? According to John" Book (1962 Edition):
Pages 4-5:
"Of course, the Bible reader who uses the generally accepted versions or translations will at once say; 'Why, there should be no difficulty about knowing who the Word is. It plainly says that the Word is God; and God is God.' But, in answer, we must say that not all our newer modern translations by Greek scholars read that way, So in the above-quoted Bible translations we are confronted with the expressions 'God' 'divine' 'god of a sort,' 'god, and 'a god,' Men who teach a triune God, Trinity, strongly object to the translation 'a god.'
They say, among other things, that it means to believe in polytheism. Or they call it Unitarianism or Arianism."
Page 40:
"So again we note that Jesus never spoke of himself as God or called himself God. He always put himself below God rather than on an equality with God."
Make Sure of All Things Book (1965 Edition):
Page 485:
"Jesus Christ Not One God with the Father
"The Father is Jesus' God"
"Jesus called his Father the "only true God," excluding himself"
"Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son"
Page 486:
"Jesus is, not God, but Mediator between God and men"
"Jesus did not claim to be God, but God's representative"
"Jesus Not Equal to the Father in Power and Glory, but Subject to Him"
"Even in heaven he is subject to the Father"
"Only Jehovah Is from Everlasting to Everlasting"
Page 487:
"Son of God had a beginning, was created"
"Oneness of Father and Son No More Mysterious than Unity of True Christians."
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1950, 1961, and 1970 Editions):
Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him'
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1971 and 1984 Editions):
Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him'
Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1985 Edition), Page 529:
Reference to Jesus as "Ho Theos" (The God)
The Watchtower July 1st 1986 Issue, Page 31:
"The title ho theos (the God, or God) which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the N(ew) T(estament) to Jesus Himself."
Should You Believe in the Trinity Brochure (1989 Edition):
Page 14:
"Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was 'the first-born of all creation.' (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was 'the beginning of God's creation.' (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). 'Beginning' (Greek, ar-khe') cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek work ar-khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of 'beginning.' Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations."
Page 15:
"The Bible calls Jesus the 'only-begotten Son' of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18: 1 John 4:9) Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?"
The Watchtower February 1st 1991 Issue, Page 17:
"Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah's chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel. God's Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) This archangel has a name, as we read at Jude 9: "When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses' body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: 'May Jehovah rebuke you.'" In not running ahead of Jehovah by daring to bring judgment against the Devil, Jesus thus honored his heavenly Father."
The Watchtower November 1st 1993 Issue, Page 23:
"In 1914, Jesus; the heavenly warrior Michael; became King of God's heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15; 12:7-9)"
The Watchtower February 1st 1994 Issue, Page 6:
"The book of Revelation explains: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [the resurrected Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."
The Watchtower July 15th 1995 Issue, Page 5:
"The Bible also describes what happened shortly after Jesus' enthronement. It says: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."
Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life Book (1995 Edition):
Page 32:
"Others have distorted Jesus' role, worshipping him as Almighty God."
Page 39:
"Jesus was called God's 'only begotten Son' because Jehovah created him directly. (John 3:16) As 'the firstborn of all creation,' Jesus was then used by God to create all other things. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)"
The Watchtower November 1st 1995 Issue, Page 8:
"The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael."
Also, the "My Book of Bible Stories" Book, in the Chapter about the 3 "Wise Men" and the "Star", it says that Jesus Christ was WORSHIPED!
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 September 2002 5:2:18
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 18 September 2002 0:51:42
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plmkrzy
Anyone can interpret anything anyway they chose at any time they chose to do so and even change their mind if they want.
Doesn't matter to me who interprets what from whatever, as far as I am concerned the idea of a "Literal Trinity" is nothing more then holy crap.
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ozziepost
G'day Kingpawn,
But if one wants to believe in the Trinity, tell me where God was the nine months the Christ child was in Mary's womb?
What you are arguing against here is NOT the Trinity. As has already been mentioned, to argue against the Trinity, you will need to read up on it first, old son!
Cheers, Ozzie
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UnDisfellowshipped
Here are some more interesting Watchtower Quotes about JESUS CHRIST:
Make Sure of All Things Book (1953 Edition), Page 85:
"Christ to be worshipped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake".
Page 178:
"Bowing before men or even angels as "relative" worship forbidden".
Make Sure of All Things Book (1965 Edition):
Page 485:
"Jesus Christ Not One God with the Father
"The Father is Jesus' God"
"Jesus called his Father the "only true God," excluding himself"
"Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son"
Page 486:
"Jesus is, not God, but Mediator between God and men"
"Jesus did not claim to be God, but God's representative"
"Jesus Not Equal to the Father in Power and Glory, but Subject to Him"
"Even in heaven he is subject to the Father"
"Only Jehovah Is from Everlasting to Everlasting"
Page 487:
"Son of God had a beginning, was created"
"Oneness of Father and Son No More Mysterious than Unity of True Christians."
Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Pages 9 and 10:
"by rendering the truth of his inspired Word as purely and as consistently as our consecrated powers make possible. There is no benefit in self-deception."
"We offer no paraphrase of the Scriptures. Our endeavor all through has been to give as literal a translation as possible,where the modern English idiom allows and where a literal rendition does not for any clumsiness hide the thought. That way we can best meet the desire of those who are scrupulous for getting as nearly as possible, word for word, the exact statement of the original."
(1969 Edition):
Colossians 2:9: ..."because in Him (Christ) is dwelling down all the fullness of the godship bodily"
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures:
Colossians 2:9: ...Because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily"
At-One-Ment Between God And Man (1899 and 1915 Editions), Page 134:
"As the special messenger of the Covenant, whom the Father had sanctified and sent into the world to redeem the world, and whom the Father honored in every manner, testifying, 'This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased' - it was eminently proper that all who beheld his glory, as the glory of an Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, should reverence him, hear him, obey him, and worship him - do him homage - as the representative of the Father."
The Watchtower October 15th 1945 Issue:
"Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship him must also bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that organization, namely Christ Jesus, his co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy."
The Official Charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, Article II, February 27th, 1945:
"The purposes of this Society are: ...public Christian worship of Almighty God and Jesus Christ; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship..."
1969 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses (Quoting Article II of the Charter):
"and for public Christian worship of Almighty God...."
(NOTICE: In the Yearbook, they left off the original requirement to worship Jesus)
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 25 September 2002 3:22:54
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bluesapphire
The last thing I want to do is participate in another "Trinity debate." First of all "Trinity" is just a word to describe something.
Kingpawn, as others have said, it is your right to believe in the Trinity or not believe in it. But you are not arguing against the Trinity because it is obvious you don't know what it is.
The easiest way I can think of to explain it is this:
There is only one nature known as HUMANITY. One nature which we use the term "Humanity" to describe. Yet there are 6 billion MEMBERS of that one humanity. Some know more than others. Some are more powerful than others. Like in a family there might be the husband, the wife, the children. The wife may not know everything that the husband knows but she is not less EQUAL in her human nature, etc. etc. But the fact that there is only ONE humanity doesn't change.
In the Bible there is only one nature which we call "Almighty God." Yet the Bible describes Jesus as Almighty God in Revelation. The Trinity doctrine says that it is because in the nature called "Almighty God" there are three MEMBERS: Jesus, the HS and the Father. That's why Jesus could be on earth while the other members of the nature called Almighty God were in heaven.
Anyways, I am not a fanatic about the Trinity or the Bible or anything else. I just thought that if you wanted to argue about the Trinity, you should first get your facts straight. Of course, you can read this and still go on and on in your assumption that the Trinity means Jesus and God are the same MEMBERS of the Trinity. But that's up to you.
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LucidSky
The biggest argument against the Trinity is the silence on the subject in Scripture.
The primary source of Christians was initially the Jewish people, strict monotheists. Such a drastic alteration in belief such as the Trinity would have brought about a tremendous controversy between the Jews and Christians. Not only converts, but Jewish enemies of Christianity would have seized upon this, possibly by iterating OT scripture that says 'God is one'. Paul argues on and on about resurrection and sin and atonement, yet this doctrine is left essentially obscureby the NT authors -- not one of them elaborates on this fundamental doctrine of Christianity!
I suppose I'm just taking issue with how Christians can claim God is one and yet three, when no Scripture says that.
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UnDisfellowshipped
LucidSky said:
Such a drastic alteration in belief such as the Trinity would have brought about a tremendous controversy between the Jews and Christians. Not only converts, but Jewish enemies of Christianity would have seized upon this, possibly by iterating OT scripture that says 'God is one'.
I have a question, which would have been harder for Jews to believe:
1: That there are Three Persons in Unity who all have the Same NATURE and ESSENCE of Almighty God, making ONLY ONE GOD, but Three Persons who all have the Nature of God.
OR
2: That there was an Almighty God (the Father), and a SECOND Lesser "Mighty God" (Jesus Christ), and then another God, the Holy Spirit, making THREE SEPARATE GODS.
If you pick Option #2, it means that the Jews would have been worshiping the Almighty God (the Father), however, the Father commands that everyone worship the Lesser Mighty God, His Son!
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LucidSky
Undisfellowshipped: Why don't the NT authors clarify the Shema -- "YHWH your God is one YHWH"? No one presents arguments for a three-in-one God when it is needed. In fact, why should there just be three? Why not two, or four or an infinite number in the Godhead?